On transcending needs, what it takes, how difficult it can be?

[Amit]

There are two different paradigms to understand how desires manifest for a being. One is the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which is similar to spiral dynamics and ken Wilber's integral model in the sense that it says humans have basic needs and desires, had to fulfill those before transcending to next level of not requiring the lower needs any more. 2nd is the perspective that everything is just an construction of the mind and so you can get free from the needs, after you awaken to this and you can construct only higher consciousness desires and this manifest only that. 

I understand that both of these paradigms are true and goes together, as realization comes with the hard way for some people and for some it's easy. Seems like when we are talking about these models, it's about consciousness and not the conventional body mind. Different kinds of meditations, contemplations has been described as the pathway towards the realization of higher realms. 

My question is more about how can we know if we are consciousness itself, if it's transcending to the higher realm, is encountering a lower consciousness perspective or thing can invoke our lower self. Is it possible and practical to be in higher state, whatever state the people interacting with you are in. Also throw some light on the which model is higher fidelity and practical in this process. 

[hamedsf]

those two could be both true on a case by case basis. but the second case which you pointed out the needs as a construction of the mind, in that case, it's brutally hard to break free of! (but being hard doesn't mean it's impossible)

I think the logical and more practical way would be meeting those needs along the consciousness works that is being done and let yourself see what will it will bring for you in the meantime! (of course, moderation is the key)

suppressing your needs can hinder and set back your further consciousness development, be on the lookout for that too!  

[lmfao]

The line between surrender vs repression of "needs" is something we all have to figure out for ourselves. 

On 07/06/2020 at 10:24 PM, Amit said:

My question is more about how can we know if we are consciousness itself, if it's transcending to the higher realm, is encountering a lower consciousness perspective or thing can invoke our lower self. Is it possible and practical to be in higher state, whatever state the people interacting with you are in

I think this highlights something involving thinking about the difference between the domain of the relative and the domain of the absolute.

As in, it might be possible to be in a state of meditation 24/7 regardless of your external environment in the absolute sense, but practically speaking that is very difficult to achieve without first doing what you can to better your external environment to aid the process. This is an example where someone might use the domain of the absolute to say, there's no point in any formal practice like seated meditation in silence. But practically there's use.

Here's another way of thinking about the above thing I mentioned of how important external environment is. Think about the mentality of a Christian praying to Jesus for something, or the mentality of law of attraction in general.

For the law of attraction, you have to do everything in your own power to facilitate getting what you want. Only then does God answer your prayer.   Whether what you want enlightenment or whatever. Different people have different degrees of power, and one facet of this power might be your ability to control the external environment to be conducive to spiritual growth. But what's important is that you're doing the best with whatever grace/power you have. It's the intention that you are fully committed and will do everything you can. 

If I have lots of power over my environment, as most of us do in the free world, and I don't use it for getting what I want then I don't want it badly enough. Suppose someone else has very little power but uses that power to the fullest they can. Even if I have a better environment than that person, our difference in attitudes and commitment is the only thing which will count in the end as to who will succeed. They will achieve it but I won't. 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by lmfao

[LastThursday]

There's a kind of synergy between the two paradigms.

Parts of the models are about survival. Survival being the continuance of the physical body.  Survival can be progressively automated by putting in place people to help you survive and strategies that protect you. Some examples are shelter, food, families, employment and so on. This then frees up your time to be able to do non-survival related activities. The models ascribe survival to lower tiers. But really survival is never guaranteed and has to be maintained, and so is ever present.

The other parts of the models are effectively about consciousness or spirituality if you will.

Consciousness has the property of potentially infinite depth. The depth of consciousness is a kind of crystallisation, where step by step you are able to discern a greater range of "states" of consciousness. This happens naturally, but can also be forced by meditation, drugs, novel experiences etc. There's a kind of ratchet effect where once you've levelled up, access to the new states becomes easier in future. It's worth noting states come and go, but it's the range of different states that matters. Some states are more useful than others for accessing Truth or God or tapping into universal intelligence or whatever - that's what "higher" means.

As a comparison think about your consciousness as a six year old and your consciousness now. How differently do you perceive things?

And just as it's possible to talk to a six year old as an adult, there's no problem in maintaining a "higher" level of consciousness permanently - you are just in a different "state" from the majority of people.

So once survival is automated, you have time on your hands to deepen consciousness. That's what the models say in my opinion.

Edited June 10, 2020 by LastThursday

[Danioover9000]

   I've found that focusing on working on your traumas, shadow selves, deprogramming limiting beliefs,  and engaging with spiritual practices like meditation and concentration can serve as supplementary training for transcending needs.

[Amit]

All the comments are very profound here. But seems like I don't need a model anymore after awakening to the truth of consciousness, some time ago. but I want to have the crystal clear understanding of all of the important models and how they interrelate. The models are scaffoldings to simplify the complexity of reality to those who are not yet awakened to the truth. Seems like we are already on the other side of it, and now analyzing it for more clarity.

[remember]

19 minutes ago, Amit said:

All the comments are very profound here. But seems like I don't need a model anymore after awakening to the truth of consciousness, some time ago. but I want to have the crystal clear understanding of all of the important models and how they interrelate. The models are scaffoldings to simplify the complexity of reality to those who are not yet awakened to the truth. Seems like we are already on the other side of it, and now analyzing it for more clarity.

that’s a trap @Amit and you know that! be careful how the ego mind tries to get rid of all structure, you think you know what the map is pointing at but throw away the map before you have seen the field. its far huger than you think, to just throw away what you thought was the map. maybe that’s what you wanted to trigger - how much better could you understand?

Edited June 11, 2020 by remember

[Amit]

@remember I'm not throwing it away, but when I can see the reality for what it is, I don't need maps to look into. But I agree maps are helpful to reflect upon, as they are based on years of research and multi-perspectival, gives us a bigger picture. 

[remember]

@Amit i‘m just realizing that there is this tiredness in the forum about spiral dynamics, maybe because in any cases it does not help to solve the problem. in some sense we are only understanding the aspects of one stage completely if we also understand the shadow aspects - this is when the map becomes the territory and we realize reading it might not be enough 

[Amit]

@remember sd was published in 1995, and so many things has changed since, like internet has taken over and ever faster exchange of ideas have been taking place and it has kinda mixed all these stages, and completely new paradigms has imerged. I won't say it's completely outdated, but to a certain extent it's not that useful in such different grounds of today. 

Agree Shadow work is still relevant and can take sd map closer to the territory. 

[remember]

34 minutes ago, Amit said:

@remember sd was published in 1995, and so many things has changed since, like internet has taken over and ever faster exchange of ideas have been taking place and it has kinda mixed all these stages, and completely new paradigms has imerged. I won't say it's completely outdated, but to a certain extent it's not that useful in such different grounds of today. 

Agree Shadow work is still relevant and can take sd map closer to the territory. 

in what way would you say that the digital age is in contradiction to spiral dynamics?

what do you think is the new paradigm and how is it in contradiction to higher purposes in life or contradicts spiral dynamics or its purpose?

i‘m not just asking because i also asked myself that question, i‘m asking to understand the perspective you have on that. i‘ll probably sit down to contemplate about that a bit more - somehow that’s a question i could probably fill pages answering to.

Edited June 11, 2020 by remember

[Amit]

@remember didn't mean contradictions, still suppose there is an orange person now and then, now he is ever more connected with at least his friends and family. So he does a job, and pushes for productivity while at office, but hangs out and smoke weed with his green hippy friends, and shares their perspective. He also have family values and try to follow on them like a blue, and then he comes in his cave and zooms out, trying to comprehend the big picture of life and systems and how he fits in, like a yellow. And then he meditate, cares about feminine, children, animals does spiritual work like a turquoise. Now imagine having people mixing and matching according to whatever they learned and connected from internet. You just need to have a question and you can find on internet so much cool information, knowledge wisdom. So though it doesn't contradict with sd, but makes the sd outdated in defining stages of growth, and demand for a better rich model. 

There is no contradiction, basic truths are still the same. But models can be updated. 

[remember]

yes in some sense that’s true, although a lifestyle like that in the long run might be unfulfilling even stressful and lonely. loneliness within company is a huge problem since at least purple, that’s not really new in history. your time gets fragmented that’s also sth they describe since industrialization - maybe what’s new is that the soul gets scattered.

[Amit]

Agree It's not a very stable lifestyle, but don't you see however we pretend to be intimate or deep relationships we are born alone and will die alone, in fact only the relationship with soul is that matter, you can do everything while being your soul always, this needs comprehensive integration and time management skills. 

[LastThursday]

SD is still an extremely useful model of the different paradigms people live by. And, it applies to both individuals and groups. 

What seems to get quickly forgotten is that each stage incorporates the stages "below" it like Russian dolls. You can't be Yellow unless you've been through Orange and Blue etc. If an individual inhabits different stages even in one day, then that simply shows their level of development - it's not that SD is wrong or outdated.

But. The sheer fact that there is more than one model shows that SD is incomplete, it's a simplification of human behaviour.

[Amit]

Till green, you have lower stages as the shadow self, you have been through them, yet you you don't accept your past self. 

In yellow, you integrate it for the first time. 

[LastThursday]

Agreed. It's like turning 40 and denying that you were ever 39.

I think what causes division in arguments about SD, is precisely because SD has clear demarcations between stages. I would say that's one of the model's faults. Having a traffic light system is easy on the mind, but it sows division! Draw a line in the sand and people will start arguing about which side is "best".

If I were to update SD myself, I would remove the colours and replace them with traits. Things like: defers to authority on principle, or believes in material possession as good and so on. People would then have a mix of traits. Some traits would then be deemed as "higher" or "more advanced"; something like: believes individual change is not possible without affecting the whole.

However, that would simply be another model with its own different divisions of reality.

[Amit]

5 hours ago, LastThursday said:

If I were to update SD myself, I would remove the colours and replace them with traits. Things like: defers to authority on principle, or believes in material possession as good and so on. People would then have a mix of traits. Some traits would then be deemed as "higher" or "more advanced"; something like: believes individual change is not possible without affecting the whole

Actually spiral dynamics is saying the same thing, but the problems is with the person who will see it not as it is, but the colored and manipulated according to his own perception and past experiences. 

[DreamScape]

Just let it go bro

[Nahm]

On 6/7/2020 at 5:24 PM, Amit said:

My question is more about how can we know if we are consciousness itself, if it's transcending to the higher realm, is encountering a lower consciousness perspective or thing can invoke our lower self.

You know by not knowing, yet the not knowing is the knowing. Literally, what is consciousness or higher realms, or encountering lower consciousness perspectives, or a lower self. One might begin to surrender shades of megalomania, or simply put, self judgment. 

On 6/7/2020 at 5:24 PM, Amit said:

Is it possible and practical to be in higher state, whatever state the people interacting with you are in. Also throw some light on the which model is higher fidelity and practical in this process. 

Sounds a bit like a materialist separatist mindset of believing in states and individuals.