Racially charged statues

[trenton]

I came to a video on which a UK protest toppled an old statue of a slave trader.  I understand that in some world views we are glorifying slave owners and therefore allowing a racist world view to be less frowned upon.  In my mind the problem is in his we perceive the statue and how we think about it.  Maybe the statue is a work of art that reminds us of our history.  They may no longer be viewed as heros, but given the culture at the time they were respected even though we disagree now.

I don't see a problem in statues outside of which paradigm you decide to think about it with.  I see that the influence of these protests might be that the statues are destroyed, but I think of them like art.  I would look at a statue and admire how it is designed.  What do you think about the statues?  Which paradigm would you prefer?

https://www.businessinsider.com/black-lives-matter-protesters-toppled-sunk-statue-of-slave-trader-2020-6

There are videos on this article in which protesters destroyed a statue.

[Preety_India]

 

This is bound to happen. History gets erased and rewritten. Nothing new about it. That's why history can't be trusted. Because who knows when it was changed and why. 

 

[trenton]

@Dutch guy why would we delete our history?

there are many mistakes humans made throughout history including racism.  It may be important to understand how hatred toward Jews could contribute to the holocaust.  Philosophers and scientists made epistemic blunders because of their misguided reasoning, and we can learn from these mistakes.

[Forestluv]

@trenton Why not put them in museums like other works of art? The problem with having them as public displays is that these are shared public spaces. My local park is shared by both white and black people. I don’t think it’s appropriate to have a statue glorifying a slave trader no more than I think it would be having a stature glorying a pedophile. 

[SerpaeTetra]

20 minutes ago, trenton said:

I came to a video on which a UK protest toppled an old statue of a slave trader.  I understand that in some world views we are glorifying slave owners and therefore allowing a racist world view to be less frowned upon.  In my mind the problem is in his we perceive the statue and how we think about it.  Maybe the statue is a work of art that reminds us of our history.  They may no longer be viewed as heros, but given the culture at the time they were respected even though we disagree now.

I don't see a problem in statues outside of which paradigm you decide to think about it with.  I see that the influence of these protests might be that the statues are destroyed, but I think of them like art.  I would look at a statue and admire how it is designed.  What do you think about the statues?  Which paradigm would you prefer?

https://www.businessinsider.com/black-lives-matter-protesters-toppled-sunk-statue-of-slave-trader-2020-6

There are videos on this article in which protesters destroyed a statue.

The video of different races coming together and supporting each other is a beautiful peace of art. 

[trenton]

@Preety_India I have a lot of doubts about history now.  I don't know how often it is rewritten and by whom with what biases.

[Preety_India]

@trenton exactly. 

 

[trenton]

@Serotoninluv i guess that makes sense.  If a work of art could offend people, then maybe we should not keep them public.

@SerpaeTetra. I agree that the protests are also beautiful.

[hoodrow trillson]

15 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@trenton Why not put them in museums like other works of art? The problem with having them as public displays is that these are shared public spaces. My local park is shared by both white and black people. I don’t think it’s appropriate to have a statue glorifying a slave trader no more than I think it would be having a stature glorying a pedophile. 

This is the correct answer here

[Preety_India]

@Dutch guy  don't worry about history. It's like worrying about old skin that you already shed. 

Worry about the present. Because it's the present that will shape the future. 

History has been manipulated several times during the course of history, so no point in looking too deep into the barrel because the barrel is empty. 

At this point history is just a distraction. 

 

 

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Dutch guy said:

Of course a lot of western people did bad things to , thats not where they are honored for. Its for the breakthrough and contributions.

There are many people that have made breakthroughs and contributions that we can honor. I would put slave traders far down on the list. 

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, Dutch guy said:

Thats probably not where the statues were about. They were not to honor slavery ownery. Owning slaves is the most normal thing there was. NOt only in white cultures, all different cultures. Owning slaves is not at all unique for white cultures, but somehow they systematically leave this out in history class.

Yes, I understand that. I said slave traders are far down on my list on who to honor in public parks. There are many people that made higher contributions to our country.

I said nothing about leaving it out of history classes. In fact, I would support including lessons of slavery and the history of black suppression in classrooms. As well, in American classrooms I would support giving honest history classes of how white Europeans severely mistreated indigenous people, rather than the nonsense that they were altruistic explorers that shared Pow Wows, meals and gifts with American Indians <= the garbage I was taught as a kid.

History classes are very different than who we honor in public parks. Don’t conflate the two. 

Also, you have a habit of downgrading. I’m talking about people whose life was about trafficking slaves and fought to perpetuate slavery. We are not talking about people that made good contributions to society and just happened to own a slave, like most people at the time. Don’t launder the acts of men that trafficked slaves and fought to continue slavery. 

[Consept]

I guess an interesting question would be, would it be ok to have statues of Nazis in Germany for example, its the same thing they serve as a reminder of history, they could be art and also outside the paradigm most people think, so would Nazi statues in Germany be ok?

[Nak Khid]

A square of a real person in the public square means the person is being tributed an exemplary member of the community. 

Times change, buildings are torn down, new ones built.

 Let somebody buy it if they want to.  If no buyers melt it to scrap.  Take some pictures if you like for historical documentation. 

But that old slave owning bastard has got to go 

 

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, trenton said:

how often it is rewritten and by whom with what biases.

Rewritten?

It was written by the most ruthless devils to begin with.

[Extreme Z7]

30 minutes ago, Dutch guy said:

Sounds terrible one sided. As if all sorts of cultures did the same. I was taught how bad white people were, only to learn later that all different cultures did slavery. And the west abolished slavery the quickest. I was mindtricked for the lefts diversity and immigration agenda. They nearly let me think that because of all the oppression poor countries are poor and that we are indebted. Very simple one sided story. But I fell for in that time.

Dude, I literally come from a culture that was historically enslaved by White Europeans. I wasn't taught that white people were bad, just that we Filipinos were historically enslaved by White Christians at one point and we fought for our freedom. At no point in history, did the Philippines do its own version of slavery.

Oppression almost always tends to be a one-sided act of cruelty.

[trenton]

@Leo Gura I would like to follow up on that to see if that is correct that history was written by devils.  Are the statues the proof?  Is there more proof?

[Forestluv]

46 minutes ago, Dutch guy said:

Sounds terrible one sided.

Yes, of course it was terribly one-sided. White Europeans invaded America and had much more sophisticated weaponry. They wiped out the native Americans in a horrific manner. It was very much a terrible one-sided era of history.

Imo, we should build public statues for the best of the best. The people that are inspiring and give us hope. The people that we aspire to. The people that symbolize “This is what our country is about”. We should not build public statues for men that made their money and power trafficking slaves and fighting to continue slavery. The U.S. is not so morally bankrupt that we have to drop to that level. There are literally millions of Americans higher up than slave traders.

[Forestluv]

7 minutes ago, Dutch guy said:

For example in amsterdam we were very earlier and quick to accept gay people.

That is awesome. I would support building a statue in Amsterdam for a leader that helped lead to the acceptance of gay people. Perhaps it could be built next to the Homomonument.

[Extreme Z7]

4 minutes ago, Dutch guy said:

This statue is ok to go. Maybe. Don't know the person. But the main narrative I got from leftist schooling is crap. We the west are the most civilized. For example in amsterdam we were very earlier and quick to accept gay people. We should be very proud of our cultures and see how other cultures now are more intolerant. Always be proud of it protect our culture, it is very precious. Lookout for BLM and antifa. Also for organizations which want to do as if all cultures are equal. They are not. Christian cultures went quicker towards modernism and its not an coincidence. Don't do as we did in the netherlands letting in 100 thousand Erdogan fans. Islam is going backwards even today , for example in Turkey. Cultures are not equal. Do not feel guilty about a very distant past. Be proud! Make netherlands and united states great!

You're weird, even for a conservative.

You're using past progressive achievements as justification to prevent further progressive movements.

Weird, man.