Will Trump be re-elected?

[Danioover9000]

Didn't the Dalai Lama once said to 'Keep Europe for the Europeans'?

[Danioover9000]

@Dutch guy

21 minutes ago, Dutch guy said:

@roopepa I agree! Marvelous. Well if they stop having it about white oppression or discrimination that would certainly help! And how whites are forever guilty of slavery and stuff like that. Then I don't need to put into perspective how this is all wrong. If they at last drop their identity politics we can progress! You sound like a Trump voter. Whites let go of your guilt, it's about time.

   Most of the threads I've seen between you and others seem to suffer from the Deepak Chopra vs. Sam Harris dynamic, where you don't quite skillfully articulate yourself while the oppositions could do better, a few did quite well to articulate their points. However, Chopra is still pointing to some big truth, despite his lackluster delivery of it. @Dutch guy is pointing to some truth here that the user struggles to clearly type it user-self, and we're criticizing this user's delivery, but not the truth behind the wall? If the Dalai Lama, an enlightened man, and a supernaturally gifted man, can say 'Keep Europe for Europeans', doesn't it give it some validity at all?

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

 

Most of the threads I've seen between you and others seem to suffer from the Deepak Chopra vs. Sam Harris dynamic, where you don't quite skillfully articulate yourself while the oppositions could do better, a few did quite well to articulate their points. However, Chopra is still pointing to some big truth, despite his lackluster delivery of it. @Dutch guy is pointing to some truth here that the user struggles to clearly type it user-self, and we're criticizing this user's delivery, but not the truth behind the wall? If the Dalai Lama, an enlightened man, and a supernaturally gifted man, can say 'Keep Europe for Europeans', doesn't it give it some validity at all?

Observe how the mind negotiates as it tries to hold onto the ideas it is identified and attached to. That is a transitional stage of development.

[Forestluv]

@Dutch guy I wasn’t referring to you. In this area, you are not yet at what I consider a transitional negotiation stage of development. 

[Danioover9000]

@Dutch guy

18 minutes ago, Dutch guy said:

@Serotoninluv  You havnt reacted yet to were I called out your biased. You are so attached to your views. And your wrong time and time again. Why do you keep holding on. You are so attached. You stil havn't opened your mind, this way you can't progress.

@Danioover9000  No information in your reaction. If you don't understand it then don't react.

   Sorry, I wasn't intending on being reactive. I slightly agree with your points on police brutality and culture. I was just reminded of the Deepak Chopra vs. Sam Harris debate, and how similar the dynamics are between the users here, the Sam Harris's that articulated far more than you did. Like Chopra, you struggle to contest with people here that have a binary opposite view to your own, similar views, or views outside the context of this thread and situation. However, I get your side and am not debating against you here. I agree with parts of your views here.

8 minutes ago, Dutch guy said:

Ofcourse he did. He knows how cultures can clash and that cultures are not equal. And he want to keep his tibetian culture and doesnt understand why western people arent aloud to do this. I guess he just likes peace.

6

   Yes, he does like peace when other cultures keep to their own without too much mingling. The Dalai Lama, a holy, supernatural saint, that altered the wether during the Chinese communist attack on the Tibetan temples, saying ' Keep Europe for Europeans' is saying a lot.

[Consept]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

Didn't the Dalai Lama once said to 'Keep Europe for the Europeans'?

If youre gonna quote use the full context, what is the point in just using 5 words that seem to agree with your point - 

The Dalai Lama has sparked anger after declaring that “Europe belongs to the Europeans”.

The Tibetan Buddhist spiritual leader also said that refugees should return to their native countries and assist with developing them.

The 14th Dalai Lama was speaking at a conference in Malmo, Sweden which is home to a large immigrant population, according to the Business Times.

“Receive them, help them, educate them ... but ultimately they should develop their own country,” the 83-year-old said, when speaking about refugees.

“I think Europe belongs to the Europeans.”

He was speaking in the aftermath of a divisive election in Sweden in which a far-right party, Swedish Democrats, made electoral gains, although they were beaten by the country's centre-left coalition.

The Dalai Lama also said that Europe was “morally responsible” for helping “a refugee really facing danger against their life”.

 

He also disagrees with Trumps America first policy - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/dalai-lama-trump-selfish-america-first-policy-latest-comments-immigration-trade-a7995766.html

[Consept]

So hes literally talking about refugees not immigrants, clear distinction, and hes saying that europe has a moral duty, to take them in and help them, which includes helping them have their own country. Nothing to do with not mingling 

[Consept]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

Most of the threads I've seen between you and others seem to suffer from the Deepak Chopra vs. Sam Harris dynamic, where you don't quite skillfully articulate yourself while the oppositions could do better, a few did quite well to articulate their points. However, Chopra is still pointing to some big truth, despite his lackluster delivery of it. @Dutch guy is pointing to some truth here that the user struggles to clearly type it user-self, and we're criticizing this user's delivery, but not the truth behind the wall? If the Dalai Lama, an enlightened man, and a supernaturally gifted man, can say 'Keep Europe for Europeans', doesn't it give it some validity at all?

If you are talking about me here which ill just assume you are and saying our friend is Chopra (lol), what is the truth that hes pointing to? as you say hes not articulated himself very well, so maybe you can do a better job. What underpins most of what he says is that he believes the white race to be objectively the better race, do you care to further explain this point? And also why that isnt a white supremacist line of thinking ?

[Carl-Richard]

This is kinda off topic, but since people are using Sam Harris as an example of proper articulation and rational principles, I just want to make you aware of the time he debated William Lane Craig and totally derailed the conversation into an activist shouting match by completely ignoring the debate topic in the second round. It's astonishing how atheists interpret Sam's performance in that debate as a victory for rationality and logic when it's the biggest red herring ever caught on tape 

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

What Spiral Stage is Joe Biden?

He is centered at orange, yet he has some sympathy for green. To me, some of that sympathy is pandering, yet I also sense that some of it is authentic. I also think that he has a basic capacity for self-reflection and that being president is bigger than himself. 

In a Biden presidency, I predict he would be influenced mostly by Orange level lobbyists, bankers, CEOs and neoliberal / corporate democrats, yet he would be willing to listen to greens and throw them some crumbs at times. Although unsatisfying to green, it would still be a major upgrade from Trump.

I lean toward him choosing Warren as VP. I think Warren is fundamentally green, yet she lets her ambitions get the best of her and acts in a way to advance her status, which would mean complying with Orange. 

[Onemanwolfpac]

1 hour ago, Dutch guy said:

@roopepa I agree! Marvelous. Well if they stop having it about white oppression or discrimination that would certainly help! And how whites are forever guilty of slavery and stuff like that. Then I don't need to put into perspective how this is all wrong. If they at last drop their identity politics we can progress! You sound like a Trump voter. Whites let go of your guilt, it's about time.

Japan had two damn atom bombs obliterate the country. I never seen Japan rioting target or stealing TVs. Too busy crushing it in life.

If we look at history, Asians were taken advantage of. Asians as a culture do better then white people. Despite injustices to Asians, I never see Japanese playing the victim card, flipping cars, and burning down their cities. 

Asian culture forces on nuclear family. Father's in the household. I haven't looked at death but I don't see stats on high abortion rates and Asian on Asian killings. 

I think a lot of communities would do 100x better by not majoring in stupid shit. Asians tend to study STEM. Single moms isn't a common practice in the culture. Its not a celebrated feat. Furthermore, government programs are a detriment as is rap and hip hop. You have idiotic athletes and celebrities cheering riots. 

Defund police is a chant? Lol does anybody have an idea of what's to happen IF police were gone? 

Quinton Jackson made this comment yo hype this fight. Its something blm doesn't touch. Its something that needs to change but the convoy is hijacked. Morons scream racist. 

 

I watched a podcast last week. A white male preacher mentioned a church football league. He mentioned the congregation is mostly black. When pulled over, the guys were all jumpy around cops, and twitchy. High cortisol like each had a key of blow on them. The preacher taught them to chill out around police. Relax. He all went onto say, they had no fathers and he wants was the closest thing to a father figure. Very sad.

[Consept]

9 hours ago, Consept said:

OK a better way to ask it is do you think the white culture is the best culture?

 

9 hours ago, Dutch guy said:

@Consept The list is soo longg... capitalism, democracy, gay rights, end of orthodox repression etc etc. Of course terrible things have been done. It happened, just like al cultures do bad things.Good to remember and not repeat, but like Hirshi Ali says don't exaggerate and let go of white guilt, it's time.

You don't have to make this about skin color. Just copy the successful practices into your culture and have success. Make it great again.

This is you saying that white culture is the best culture, in fact you say the list for why theyre so great is to long to list 

This is a definition of white supremacist beliefs - White supremacy is a term used to characterize various belief systems central to which are one or more of the following key tenets: 1) whites should have dominance over people of other backgrounds, especially where they may co-exist; 2) whites should live by themselves in a whites-only society; 3) white people have their own "culture" that is superior to other cultures; 4) white people are genetically superior to other people. As a full-fledged ideology, white supremacy is far more encompassing than simple racism or bigotry. Most white supremacists today further believe that the white race is in danger of extinction due to a rising “flood” of non-whites, who are controlled and manipulated by Jews, and that imminent action is need to “save” the white race.

By saying you have white supremacist beliefs im making a factual statement based on your words and what you say you believe. Its not an insult or a way to dismiss you its simply what you believe. I can respect that more than if you try and paint it like you dont have these beliefs but then say a similar rhetoric. 

 

[Consept]

2 minutes ago, Dutch guy said:

@Consept  You are all cultures are equal guy hey?  Then leave were you live and let go capitalism, democracy, gay rights, end of orthodox repression and go to an orthodox islamic country. For example with Erdogan. Good luck! Have a nice time. And don't complain that life there is so much worse for you.

Of course my reaction should be seen in context. The cops were just acquised of systematic racism towards blacks, while they factually kill whites easier! Also you said slavery was still an important factor. And more. So to put this whites are perpetrator view in perspective I call all the positive things that have come from whites. And now I am a supremist? This is getting really really wacky. It seems that whatever whites do they are the bad guys. People are fed up of this making division on skincolor. Fed up!!! They will vote Trump again and after that somebody like him. Of course. I am happy I live in a less divers country yet. What a lot of problems diversity causes.

My beliefs are irrelevant, your issue is more with the dictionary, factually youve said things that would be classed as white supremacy. -

"Different forms of white supremacism put forth different conceptions of who is considered white, and different groups of white supremacists identify various racial and cultural groups as their primary enemy.[3]  "youve consistently mentioned Moroccans and Erdogon as your enemy even when no one has asked

"In academic usage, particularly in usage which draws on critical race theory or intersectionality, the term "white supremacy" can also refer to a political or socioeconomic system, in which white people enjoy a structural advantage (privilege) over other ethnic groups, on both a collective and individual level."

Sorry bro the dictionary and Wikipedia is what it is. What would you say you are a white nationalist? Do you support the Dutch Peoples Union?

[Consept]

16 minutes ago, Dutch guy said:

It seems that whatever whites do they are the bad guys. People are fed up of this making division on skincolor. Fed up!!!

If youre fed up then why not fight to close the gap in all the sectors whites are benefiting unfairly such as education, then we can start to forget about racial issues or even race as a whole. As long as its unfair people will complain, i dont know how you can get around that, why should American white kids get 23 billion more for the education than black kids just because of how the system is set up?

[Forestluv]

@Dutch guy Have you ever  lived in other cultures? For example, living within a foreign country with a very different culture than yours.

When I was younger, I had a belief that “American Culture was best”. I wasn’t conscious of this, yet when I traveled to foreign countries and someone would say something about their culture, I might say “Well, in America we do it like this”. There was a subconscious belief that this was better. . . Yet then I started living within villages in foreign countries. For example, I lived two months in villages in Honduras and Guatemala. I started noticing things about their culture that I liked better. It’s not that I had to reject American Culture, I just saw how there culture had very positive aspects that American culture generally lacks. I started to see how I liked aspects within various cultures. I was no longer bound to thinking “American culture is best”. I was no free to see the positives in various cultures. This is very liberating and opens space for amazing discoveries and experiences. I later spent three months traveling through South America and discovered / experienced so many wonderful things about South American culture. And not just from a distance like a tourist. I learned to speak Spanish and lived with locals in their homes.   

[Consept]

3 minutes ago, Dutch guy said:

@Consept This is becoming to silly. Of course the west has had lots of very important accomplishments. And we should keep that culture and be very proud about it. This brainwashing has gotten so deep in the people. Full of guilt about slavery. Wake up, all different cultures did that , we got rid of it first, its too long ago etc etc. White people let go of your guilt, don't let yourself be called things like supremacist just because you want peace, freedom and a nice life. I really don't understand how still so much people can vote for democrats. It boggles the mind. I don't have more patience for this. I'm done.

Its no hate from my part im just pointing out something. If you say and believe that white culture is superior to other cultures that means you have a white supremacist belief. You might not like that definition and notice i havent actually labelled you as one, but that is literally the definition. In this post youre essentially doubling down and justifying your position, youre even saying theyre the best because they got rid of slavery first, which is quite funny. So it seems like you like saying things that are white supremacist rhetoric but you dont like the label and thats fair enough, out of respect i havent called you it, but when you post on social media, here and other forums that you mentioned you will definitely get labelled a white supremacist by people. Its like a duck quacking and then saying 'no im not a duck its all brainwashing'. If you go to right wing and white nationalist forums they will agree with you completely. 

To @Serotoninluvs point most countries try to instil this exceptionalism idea, Americans do the pledge of allegiance and are really brainwashed to think USA is the best, i think out of the western world they are at the pinnacle of exceptionalism but most countries do it to a certain extent, so its understandable you feel as you do, so i empathise with you. Theres a lot of stuff i like about the UK, where im from but there are also many complex issues, this is the same everywhere 

[Consept]

11 minutes ago, Dutch guy said:

That is an insane definition and shows how radical the ideology is becoming.

Well i mean its not really insane or radical, its been the definition for years, its one of the main tenants of white supremacy. It may seem insane to you if thats what you truly believe and you dont want it to be called white supremacy. Its kinda weird you can be so proud of white nationalist and white supremacy rhetoric but at the same time not want to be called one. Most people who do follow that rhetoric dont mind being called a white supremacist, maybe its just a language thing.  Heres the definition from dictionary.com -

the belief, theory, or doctrine that white people are inherently superior to people from all other racial and ethnic groups, especially Black people, and are therefore rightfully the dominant group in any society.

Would say youve said quite a few things along those lines -

24 minutes ago, Dutch guy said:

yes all cultures are beautifull. In saodi arabia we have the authentic chopping of heads for gays. In China we have the authentic cultural practice which is called disappearing when having the wrong opinion. In Italy we have the italian sport called paying no taxes. In the middleeast we have the o so beautiful religious wars. In south afrika we have the white farmers killings. Then we have the different shit hole countries. etc etc etc. All cultures are the same. All those things whites have accomplished are of no worth, lets just make the world one country. I guess since china is to become the most powerfull we will live in communism. Horray!!

I mean thats pretty squarely in the white supremacist definition, sorry to break it to you bro. As a test why dont you visit a white supremacist rhetoric page post some of your beliefs about immigrants and see if they agree with you, if they do then that would be pretty conclusive, then at least you dont have to pretend youre a yellow thinking systems thinker anymore, could be quite liberating 

[Epikur]

4 minutes ago, Consept said:

Well i mean its not really insane or radical, its been the definition for years, its one of the main tenants of white supremacy. It may seem insane to you if thats what you truly believe and you dont want it to be called white supremacy. Its kinda weird you can be so proud of white nationalist and white supremacy rhetoric but at the same time not want to be called one. Most people who do follow that rhetoric dont mind being called a white supremacist, maybe its just a language thing.  Heres the definition from dictionary.com -

the belief, theory, or doctrine that white people are inherently superior to people from all other racial and ethnic groups, especially Black people, and are therefore rightfully the dominant group in any society.

Would say youve said quite a few things along those lines -

I mean thats pretty squarely in the white supremacist definition, sorry to break it to you bro. As a test why dont you visit a white supremacist rhetoric page post some of your beliefs about immigrants and see if they agree with you, if they do then that would be pretty conclusive, then at least you dont have to pretend youre a yellow thinking systems thinker anymore, could be quite liberating 

I think there has to be find the sweet spot the balance. Maybe there are parallels to some activities like going to the school, having challenging hobbies and so on. People who do it on a high level or the highest level are very invested in their activity. They are proud about it and they usually get positive feedback form their community. 

When this feedback gets denied and one gets punished to be good and proud for ones accomplishments naturally the guy gets frustrated. There has to be found the balance where the guy with his accomplishments (or the culture) gets positive feedback vs gets criticisim for his pride and humiliating others.

The question is how much are these exceptional people worth?. They seem to producing inequality. On the other hand these people usually produce advanced technology that seems to bring social progress. 

So it's about balance. Both elements are important. There has to be balance between socialism and capitalism. Naturally everybody has their own default level. 




 

[Consept]

8 minutes ago, Epikur said:

I think there has to be find the sweet spot the balance. Maybe there are parallels to some activities like going to the school, having challenging hobbies and so on. People who do it on a high level or the highest level are very invested in their activity. They are proud about it and they usually get positive feedback form their community. 

When this feedback gets denied and one gets punished to be good and proud for ones accomplishments naturally the guy gets frustrated. There has to be found the balance where the guy with his accomplishments (or the culture) gets positive feedback vs gets criticisim for his pride and humiliating others.

The question is how much are these exceptional people worth?. They seem to producing inequality. On the other hand these people usually produce advanced technology that seems to bring social progress. 

So it's about balance. Both elements are important. There has to be balance between socialism and capitalism. Naturally everybody has their own default level. 




 

Yeah of course, a balance between socialism and capitalism is needed. Im pretty sure most governmental ideas could work if the level of consciousness is high enough. For example if capitalism was truly fair, maybe that could involve not being able to leave everything to your kids so that they dont get a crazy head start, or all education being the same high standard. The problem with capitalism is that a lot of those at the top of the tree are there because of history, what the parents and grand parents did has led to their head start. Conversely if your family wasnt so successful you are then way behind through no fault of your own, in which case you have to hope youre gifted in some way to succeed. 

As consciousness rises amongst everyone i think things will naturally shift to a fairer society, humans like to be competitive and thats important but we also like it to be a fair game and i think thats what democratic socialism is intending to fix, whether it works or not is another thing. From a libertarian, capitalist point of view, its not in their best interests to make the game fairer, which is why theyre fighting for the status quo. You can see some of the tactics in this thread ie making it seem its solely the minorities fault, othering them, promoting their own culture at others expense. These are all tactics and mind games really, to keep minorities where they are, another way they do this could be the welfare system that gives just enough to survive but not enough to thrive, and makes them dependent on the system and therefore continuing the status quo. I mean its so much effort to keep this going in why not just give in lol. But obviously comes down to fear that they will lose everything and that they wont have the same status in society.

I will say we seem to have come further in terms of a fair society than most other large scale civilisations in history, which we are even aware of how unfair it is. These battles are really the last efforts of a dying system and we're getting to a stage where if you dont evolve you will get left behind 

[Forestluv]

@Dutch guy You’ve mentioned white guilt several times and I think this is an important point. I’d like to share a personal experience regarding guilt.

When I was learning Spanish in Central America I was at a beginner level. I felt awkward trying to speak Spanish with locals. I wasn’t good at it and I felt embarrassed and that they probably think I’m stupid. I was very intent on speaking Spanish properly, especially with pronunciation. I practiced pronunciation over and over. My teachers often told me my pronunciation was actually quite good for my level and assured me that people wouldn’t judge me. Yet that wasn’t good enough. I spent countless hours practicing how to roll RRs and thrill Rs. 

When I returned to the U.S., I realized that I had been subconsciously judging how others speak and this is the reason I was so insecure about people judging my poor Spanish. . . When I was a kid, my parents would mock the speaking pattern of inner-city black people. It was a manner of speaking that was not proper English and there was a different tone an cadence. People around me would call it “Jive” and mock it. I knew from a very early age that this was a stupid form of speaking. As well, my parents were very strict about my speaking. If I used incorrect grammar, they would firmly correct me. I knew I didn’t want to sound like “them”. I went on into academia and it became important for me to speak very precisely and articulately. . . And for decades of my life I was judging others based on their speaking style. Judging them on how educated, intelligent, status, worthiness etc. I wasn’t intentionally doing this. It was subconscious. Even after I realized this, I couldn’t make it stop. It was conditioned into me and it would automatically appear. Here is the part with guilt: When it would appear, I felt bad about it. I didn’t want to judge people like this. I wanted to be able to connect with lots of different people. I also remembered how I would often correct people when they didn’t speak English properly. I would do this in public spaces, even my classrooms. I did it in a manner that was very insensitive and a bit derogatory. I felt guilty about it, yet I didn’t do it on purpose. It was subconsciously conditioned into me. Yet now that I knew, I could do something about it. . . 

I was very ashamed to talk to anyone about this. Especially a black person. I was afraid they would judge me and call me racist. I didn’t want to feel guilty. Yet that’s not what it’s about. I started dating a black woman and told her. I really liked her and didn’t want her impression of me to change, yet I also wanted to grow closer to her. To my surprise, she wasn’t surprised at all. She actually appreciated my vulnerability and willingness to look at myself and grow. This gave me the confidence to share with my colleagues of color at my University. Again, I was nervous that they would judge me and call me a bad professor. I didn’t want to feel guilty. Yet that’s not what they did. Like my gf, they allowed safe space. They could see that I genuinely wanted to learn and grow. I learned a lot about implicit biases and started teaching about it in my courses. 

This process removed this filter that was conditioned into me. And I can say I appreciate life much better. I much better at connecting with a wider variety of people. For example, I spent a month living with locals in Belize. The community I lived with spoke a broken form of kriol English and had a very difficult time speaking proper English. Yet rather than judging them and trying to teach them how to speak English ”properly”, I had a deep appreciation for their kriol. There manner of speaking was sooo wonderful. It was spontaneous and flowed beautifully. I was with a group one time and asked them to help me speak kriol like them. Yet I couldn’t do it. Just like they couldn’t speak “proper” English like me. Yet now there was no “proper”. There was no “right” way to speak English. There was no “better” culture of English. . . We had so much fun, even though I sucked at it. There were times in which they would laugh hysterically at my poor kriol speaking. Yet I was no longer insecure about this. I laughed with them it was part of the fun. One time I playfully said “Oh yea? You think my kriol is bad. How about you say Hippopotamus?” They stumbled around trying and we all laughed together. 

In going through this process, the “me or them” dissolved. I was no longer an outsider looking in. I was no longer judging them as being inferior based on their “improper”. Rather, I was engaging with them. There was love amongst each other. 

To me, it seems like you are missing out on something very special and I hope you get to explore that one day. It’s not an intellectual thing, it is a heart thing.