IT'S JUST A STORY!!!

[billiesimon]

7 minutes ago, Nahm said:

This place is imaginary and made of vibration of infinite being. Thought arises as imagery and or concept, and is made of the same.

So see for yourself. 

 

Thanks for the great advice ?

Which ironically comes from and goes to the same entity 

[Nahm]

@billiesimon

The tango of the loops.

Love ya!

[WaveInTheOcean]

On 7.6.2020 at 6:57 PM, remember said:

 

@WaveInTheOcean if anything tells you there is something like above or below in enlightenment you are far from it in the humble experience of nothing. 

 

Consciousness is an infinite scale, relatively speaking. Lowest is complete absorption in ego/character (= not seeing the character for what it is: a character). Highest is complete absorption in your true self, i.e. God.

It's impossible to actually *become* the highest during day-to-day-life, since day-to-day-life implies controlling the character (but you can become very aware and feel that the character is not  the whole You, but a fantasy imagined by You).

During human life you can, however, become infinitely close to God / Your True Self. In that sense, there is always more to it than "mere" enlightenment. You can always expand your consciousness -- and most importantly: you can expand it in infinite directions! There are infinite flavours, colours of God. <3

Anyway, in this discussion, it's always important to be very clear what we mean by "enlightenment"/"awakening".  

Here is my own analogy of the path:

You start your life at one side of the river: complete ego-absorption, completely asleep.

- At some point you maybe get a glimpse of the True Self -- micro-awakening -- which tells you that the 'poor little body-mind-self' is not the whole You. This is where you are thrown into the river. You are not awakened yet in the fullest sense, since you are still very much "not free" and doesn't actually understand what you are. But you are still "more enlightened" than all other people who are still completely asleep. Because you sense/know there is something bigger than your ego. The spiritual journey begins. I also like to call this the awakening of the mind. You sort of understand and can maybe even rationlize about 'Oneness', 'ego', 'God', 'non-duality' etc., but you don't actually *get it*.

- If you keep being passionate about understanding reality/truth/yourself and strive to become honest and authentic, then at some point you will reach the other side of the river. This we could call the awakening of the heart. Now you *get it*. You feel it. You understand deeply in both mind and heart that your persona/body-ego-mind is a character that You are playing. And that You = Divine = Everything = Nothing. You are free.

- Now that you are on the other side of the river, you are what we would call awakened, enlightened, liberated. But you are not done yet. In a sense the REAL journey starts now. You see the woods on this other side of the river. And you naturally walk into the woods. The deeper you walk into them, the higher your consciousness becomes.

This is all relatively speaking, needless to say :-) Words are of course meaningless in regards to True Communication. I'm just pointing a finger.

Edited June 10, 2020 by WaveInTheOcean

[remember]

27 minutes ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

Consciousness is an infinite scale, relatively speaking.

no, that’s a false assumption - a very two dimensional one. i‘m ok with the rest partially because i accept your individual perspective, but at this part you have not yet become conscious.

Edited June 10, 2020 by remember

[WaveInTheOcean]

5 hours ago, remember said:

no, that’s a false assumption - a very two dimensional one. i‘m ok with the rest partially because i accept your individual perspective, but at this part you have not yet become conscious.

Ehee, not that it matters, but then you also disagree with Leo on that, (I think, cos he always talks about conscious as something you can raise, maybe he has changed view, not that i rly care).

Anyway, you are of course right: from the highest absolute perspective, consciousness is god is love is one is Self is everything is nothing. And therefore it's silly to talk about a scale of consciousness.

But from a *relative* perspective I'd very much say a person's consciousness is something that can be raised. If you disagree with that then I find you rather funny?❤️

[remember]

@WaveInTheOcean no, i‘m not disagreeing with leo, if my perception of what a level of consciousness is, is approximately a similar conception. although the highest perspective does not automatically have anything to do with the level of consciousness. the highest absolute perspective is always rather a perspective than a level. but  the level is not a perspective, and the measurement of level is not its content nor its structure or density nor is it a vessel or a stick someone decided to use as a measurement. not that this would be a much better comparison but its at least three dimensional.

if you want to raise the sea level you need to melt a lot of mountains, for example. although then it would still not be drinkable.

Edited June 10, 2020 by remember

[WaveInTheOcean]

14 minutes ago, remember said:

@WaveInTheOcean no, i‘m not disagreeing with leo, if my perception of what a level of consciousness is, is approximately a similar conception. although the highest perspective does not automatically have anything to do with the level of consciousness. the highest absolute perspective is always rather a perspective than a level. but  the level is not a perspective, and the measurement of level is not its content nor its structure or density nor is it a vessel or a stick someone decided to use as a measurement. not that this would be a much better comparison but its at least three dimensional.

Sorry to be rude but I didn't understand a word of what you just wrote, which means either:

A: You're mumbling/being very unclear.

B: I'm retarded / not not on the same level as you (??)

Or both.

❤️??

[WaveInTheOcean]

Ok read it again comfy and home from work and it made somewhat more sense. Yes, 3-dimensional, i like that wording!

"if you want to raise the sea level you need to melt a lot of mountains, for example. although then it would still not be drinkable." That's a fine analogy

@remember

Edited June 10, 2020 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

On 8.6.2020 at 4:58 AM, Gili Trawangan said:

@VeganAwake and @WaveInTheOcean , hopefully you can both recognize that you're saying the same thing, just taking different stances. It's like you're going:

- I'm everything. I'm God.

- No, there is no 'I'. I is Nothing. I am nothing, I'm not.

- But dude, I'm God. Can't you see 'I' am you and everything?!

- No, nothing. Just a story. There's no one.

 

Well, Nothing = Everything. Both of you are correct, and both of you are wrong, and both and neither and silence and infinity and gibberish.

Luckily, there was a master who was able to reconcile this with few words and say it in the most beautiful way:

“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing,
Love is knowing I am everything,
and between the two my life moves.”

 

You can keep arguing though, it's still fun to read 

Yeah thanks for reminding me   not that I didn't really know it beforehand

I'm fully aware we are saying the same things, i.e. pointing to the Absolute nature of reality/Truth, and yeah that Nisargadatta-quote is one of my favs.

With that said, I can just sniff out from his rigid and dry way of writing that he's probably not 'fully there' yet, but what I do know, maybe he is :-) not that it matters at all <3 and what does it even mean to "fully be there?" ,... nothing, or well, I guess it means complete inner peace. This Inner Peace I'm feeling 24/7 since my awakening 1 ½ week ago: I wish everyone could feel that.

(( I'd now expect him to reply to this post in these sort of lines:

"The one who believes he scan sniff out anything is a dream, an illusion, fantasy.
Who is the "he" that is not fully there yet? Everything is perfect as it is. It is 'here' Now.
To believe it  doesn't matter is a belief. A concept."

))



Of course, vegan-ideology-dude-who-thinks-he's awake: I'm very thankful to you for reminding me not to get too far ahead of myself. Sure, you are right, the ego likes to take ownership of every experience -- gotta watch out.

Edited June 10, 2020 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

On 7.6.2020 at 7:57 PM, VeganAwake said:

And the belief that there is a higher perspective as opposed to lower perspective is still caught in the dream and is still duality ?

And that's just fine because it's what's happening it's whole complete and perfect but for No One. ❤

 

On 8.6.2020 at 5:49 AM, VeganAwake said:

Yep and then that's what's occurring there...

It's already perfect it's already whole it's already complete it's already Paradise it's already the kingdom of heaven ❤

 

"there isn't anyone here to hold on to any concepts or beliefs... "

Okay, this is gonna be fun, so why not. 

To use the nisargadatta-quote, my "problem" (not that I have any real problems in life since my awakening) with veganawake is that he is indeed too far on the "everything is nothing" on the <"I'm Nothing" <--> "I'm Everything">-scale.

The scale is of course a dualistic concept, and nothing and everything is absolutely one and the same thing.

But anyway, it's quote obvious to me -- I'd like to believe, I may be wrong -- that veganwake's mind is not really in full non-dual mode  It's somewhat stuck in the "nihilistic nothingness/everything is perfect as it is/nothing matters/nothing exist"-way-of-thinking.

Of course this way of thinking is true enough. There's nothing wrong with saying these things. The problem arises if you cling to these ideas and hold them as the whole truth. The whole truth is: "paradox, non-dual, infinite, every-perspective-is-equal".

As I have said multiple times but which veganawake somehow does not seem to fully grasp is that everything that we can say with words and sentences can never-ever be fully true.

And you can take any statement and flip it on its head and this opposite statement will be equally as true as the original statement.

When we communicate and say things, we always say it to someone, either to ourselves or to another. What I say on this forum depends mostly on what I think most readers are identified with. For example, if most readers are lost in the dream and does not grasp that their ego and everything is fantasy and that they are Divine, then I'll say things that'll make them try to understand this. 

However, let's say most readers are fanatics who are clinging to the nihilistic belief that they don't exist and that nothing matters and that they truly are God and that they can do as they damn please, then I might write something like:

"Everything matters. The Now is eternal and infinite. It's all that matters and it contains everything. You do exist. Yes as God. But you don't understand what God is. God has nothing to do with your personal beliefs and ideas. You may very well believe that you can do as you damn please, sure, but it's a belief, notice that. You do exist, and Reality is Real in the Realest sense. Yes, It's a dream, but it's your fucking draem. You decided to dream it up. Do you think that it was a mistake? No it wasn't. This dream of yours is intelligent and planned out. Make no mistake, fool".



Anyway to conclude this pointless rant, I'll take some things VeganAwake have said and use his own logic against him. Just to make him see how lost he is.

(I've been stuck in his way of thinking for a long time by the way. So did Leo. It's only recently, like the past 1-2 years that Leo has incoporated the Love-aspect into his teachings).

"And the belief that there is a higher perspective as opposed to lower perspective is still caught in the dream and is still duality "

Your sincere belief that there is no higher perspective as opposed to lower perspective shows that you're still caugtht in the fantasy-land of duality.
I could say that there are indeed higher perspectives compared to lower perspectives, and it would be just as true as what you said. See, I don't disagree with you, only with your rigid mind.

"And that's just fine because it's what's happening it's whole complete and perfect but for No One."  

It's complete and perfect for God as well, you could say.
Your "sincere belief of nothingness" is just that: a belief.

"there isn't anyone here to hold on to any concepts or beliefs... "

Your belief that there isn't anyone here to hold on to any concepts or beliefs is just that: a belief. I could say that there indeed is someone here that is capable of holding on to beliefs and concepts, namely You (God, I'm talking to you my friend), and it would be just as true as your original statement.

"It's already perfect it's already whole it's already complete it's already Paradise it's already the kingdom of heaven"

It's not already whole. It's not already complete. We got a lot of work to do. The kingdom of heaven is certainly not here on Earth yet. Have you seen what's happening in US? How many children every day that die due to hunger in Africa? To say it's already paradise is ... well, of course true enough, if you look at it from one level of magnification, hehe, but not from another level of magnification:-) No level of magnification is more true than any other. We can zoom infinitely  far out and infinitely far in, and it's always that: a perspective, always only half-truth. 




As I said, of course, from my level of magnification it's sort of already whole and perfect and Paradise itself is certainly right in front of my eyes in everything I look at. That's how I feel. I see the Beautiful Garden all around me. Do you?

<3 Much love to everyone here. <3 Sorry for being harsh and arrogant, I can't help my self. <3 This isn't even something I'm writing. It's Flow.

Edited June 10, 2020 by WaveInTheOcean

[molosku]

It's a story, but who are YOU?

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

Yeah thanks for reminding me   not that I didn't really know it beforehand

I'm fully aware we are saying the same things, i.e. pointing to the Absolute nature of reality/Truth, and yeah that Nisargadatta-quote is one of my favs.

With that said, I can just sniff out from his rigid and dry way of writing that he's probably not 'fully there' yet, but what I do know, maybe he is :-) not that it matters at all <3

(( I'd now expect him to reply to this post in these sort of lines:

"The one who believes he scan sniff out anything is a dream, an illusion, fantasy.
Who is the "he" that is not fully there yet? Everything is perfect as it is. It is 'here' Now.
To believe it  doesn't matter is a belief. A concept."

))



Of course, vegan-ideology-dude-who-thinks-he's awake: I'm very thankful to you for reminding me not to get too far ahead of myself. Sure, you are right, the ego likes to take ownership of every experience -- gotta watch out.

I use the voice text option on my cell which is probably why it may sound robotic riged/dry.

Language and thinking is dualistic in the sense that there is an apparent separate individual speaking or thinking here and everything else out there... the communication isn't it, it's just a pointer as you've already said.

This communication is pointing to the recognition that there isn't a separate individual within the human body that should obtain something in the future called Awakening or enlightenment.

So in that sense Enlightenment or Liberation is already the case it's there now waiting to be recognized by no one.... just so it's clear haha ?

 

 

 

 

 

[WaveInTheOcean]

'It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.'

'The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.'

- Aristotle

[WaveInTheOcean]

22 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

This communication is pointing to the recognition that there isn't a separate individual within the human body that should obtain something in the future called Awakening or enlightenment.

So in that sense Enlightenment or Liberation is already the case it's there now waiting to be recognized by no one.... just so it's clear haha ?

I fully agree. or you could say it's waiting to be remembered by God who forgot she willingly decided to forget that he's God and instead tricked itself into believing it was an individual/separate ego-person-body-mind.

God = No One

Edited June 10, 2020 by WaveInTheOcean

[VeganAwake]

2 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

I fully agree. or you could say it's waiting to be remembered by God who forgot she willingly decided to forget that he's God and instead tricked itself into believing it was an individual/separate ego-person-body-mind.

God = No One

And it's perfectly fine to have that recognition, experience or belief there... no judgement at all.

What this message is attempting to communicate is that "the sense of self" can not conceive of its own unreality. And why would it, it wants to survive just like any other apparent living entity. It simply cannot and will not accept that it's unreal.

It will subtly sneak in the back door as the true self the higher self the spiritual self the god self.... it will do whatever it has to do to not die... 

It will say look I'm the new spiritual do- gooder Ego, there's no reason to ever get rid of me, I'm all about peace love and harmony more more more.

This isn't Liberation or Enlightenment, it's a case of the sneaky spiritual ego trip.

This exact experience occurred here... the ego was regathering itself and returning as the Great and Mighty all-knowing Spiritual Ego.

The recognition here was too deep though and it was seen for what it was... just another attempt by the Ego to slide in and take back over.

to make a long story short:

It was dropped like it was hot ?...

 

 

 

 

[WaveInTheOcean]

13 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

And it's perfectly fine to have that recognition, experience or belief there... no judgement at all.

What this message is attempting to communicate is that "the sense of self" can not conceive of its own unreality. And why would it, it wants to survive just like any other apparent living entity. It simply cannot and will not accept that it's unreal.

It will subtly sneak in the back door as the true self the higher self the spiritual self the god self.... it will do whatever it has to do to not die... 

It will say look I'm the new spiritual do- gooder Ego, there's no reason to ever get rid of me, I'm all about peace love and harmony more more more.

This isn't Liberation or Enlightenment, it's a case of the sneaky spiritual ego trip.

This exact experience occurred here... the ego was regathering itself and returning as the Great and Mighty all-knowing Spiritual Ego.

The recognition here was too deep though and it was seen for what it was... just another attempt by the Ego to slide in and take back over.

to make a long story short:

It was dropped like it was hot ?...

 

 

 

 

 ???

[Ananta]

On 6/6/2020 at 10:05 PM, billiesimon said:

Now I understand why we love ignorance and living in autopilot.

 

I don't think it's because we love it. It's because we are identified with/as it.

On 6/6/2020 at 10:05 PM, billiesimon said:

I am not the movie character, I AM and that's it!!!

Yes! ..and if you (awarenesss) stop identifying with the movie character, then you will only observe it's antics.

On 6/6/2020 at 10:05 PM, billiesimon said:

IT'S ALL A STORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yesssssssss, it is! ?

But, being able to dis-identify with the movie character is the issue at hand. 

On 6/6/2020 at 10:05 PM, billiesimon said:

I am already awakened, but this is also a HUGE PARADOX because I realize that the story is necessary for me to awaken,

Yep, ...and the story can get more ugly (suffering) to push you into awakening further. 

The action figure is going to get slapped upside the head most likely and it's going to hurt! But, it's for the best. ?

Break down the little "me", realize it's an illusory self. Have you used Ramana Maharshi "who am I"? 

Peace?❤

 

 

 

[WaveInTheOcean]

15 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

It will subtly sneak in the back door as the true self the higher self the spiritual self the god self.... it will do whatever it has to do to not die... 

It will say look I'm the new spiritual do- gooder Ego, there's no reason to ever get rid of me, I'm all about peace love and harmony more more more.

This isn't Liberation or Enlightenment, it's a case of the sneaky spiritual ego trip...

Could you as clear and consise as possible then describe your definition of Enlightenment/Liberation? :-) 

[WaveInTheOcean]

Quote

"So in that sense Enlightenment or Liberation is already the case; it's there now waiting to be recognized by no one".
vs.
"This exact experience occurred here... the ego was regathering itself and returning as the Great and Mighty all-knowing Spiritual Ego.
The recognition here was too deep though and it was seen for what it was... just another attempt by the Ego to slide in and take back over."

Who got that recognition? :-) Who saw it for what it was?
 

Quote

"This exact experience occurred here... the ego was regathering itself and returning as the Great and Mighty all-knowing Spiritual Ego."

What do you mean by 'here'? And what/who experienced this regathering of the ego? :-)
 

Quote

It was dropped like it was hot.

Oh, so it was dropped like it was hot? By who? Who dropped it ?

-------------------------------------------------- @VeganAwake--------------------------------------------------

To keep this discussion really simple, if you do not fully agree with this:

Nothingness = Everything = Love = God = Ego = Consciousness

, then I can safely say you're still lost. In either way, if you do actually agree, then we have nothing to discuss. Also if you disagree, there's no point either in continuing this "discussion" between I and myself.

And it's perfectly fine to have an other recognition, experience or belief here... no judgement at all. <3

-------------------------------------------------- @VeganAwake--------------------------------------------------
 

Quote

"It will say look I'm the new spiritual do- gooder Ego, there's no reason to ever get rid of me, I'm all about peace love and harmony more more more."

I know you don't actually judge me. But still: Do you judge me for writing so much here about love and peace? Making <3's all the time? If your state of consciousness/enlightenment does not grasp/understand that Reality is in fact All About Love, then sure, you may still be somewhat awakened/enlightened/liberated, but it's pretty incomplete in the humble opinion of no one :-)

Much love <3

Edited June 11, 2020 by WaveInTheOcean

[VeganAwake]

7 minutes ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

Could you as clear and consise as possible then describe your definition of Enlightenment/Liberation? :-) 

Sure, 

The recognition that there isn't a separate individual inside the body. The sense of self was a  misidentification with thought and pathological thinking which started at a very young age. 

Simultaneously the recognition that there is nothing to continue seeking for because the Seeker isn't real and there was nothing missing in the first place that could be found.