Belief or Truth

[JayG84]

I'm not here to debate. I intuitively know that my thoughts, beliefs, and perceptions are not my true nature. I have not had an awakening to it, I've just always known it deep down. I recognize it everywhere in my life. I can see and feel people's egos as well as I see my own. I've seen the tricks it plays. I've worked through a lot of "programming" intellectually. And have a long way to go still. I'm not enlightened, and I'm kind of scared to see the Truth to be honest. 

But I still can't help but wonder if my idea of Absolute Oneness is still a belief that I hold. I mean it "feels" true. But maybe my mind is just believing that it's true. just like cult members beleive their ideology. Except this ideology is the absence of all ideology. How do I know??

I know I have to Awaken to find out. But even if I see the truth in a psychedelic trip or self-inquiry session. How do I know it's not "my brain" playing tricks on me. Maybe all anti-materialism stuff is just as bad as Christians believing that Atheists don't know the truth.

What is it about the Awakening experience that makes you Absolutely sure it's not something that you are conceptualizing on a level you are not aware of? Like someone saying "OOOhhh...this planet is just floating in Space-Time! This must be the Truth!"

I know there must be a truth out there, and that all falsehoods lead there. But could there not be a "Truth" beyond what you guys experienced? An even deeper insight? What makes it feel more TRUE than any other TRUTH?

 

[SoonHei]

@JayG84 the the idea or concept of absolute Oneness is a belief. But what the idea or the concept points to is the actuality of it... Just like the taste of Orange described in words is not the actual taste. If someone regurgitates the definition of the Taste when asked about it, that would be their belief, not the experience of the taste.

 

 

 

About your true nature, it is what has the thoughts or the imagination. Just like right now if I ask you to think of a tree with a monkey on it. That image is appearing inside of you. Prior to that image that space was there, empty of any image and having the potential of infinite imagery until you collapse it into the tree with the monkey on it. You are that empty capacity.

Edited June 6, 2020 by SoonHei

[James123]

@JayG84 truth includes everything thats why it is nothingness or formless. So whatever you believe it happens within the truth. Your beliefs are something, which is exist within everything.

[Dodo]

27 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

@JayG84 the the idea or concept of absolute Oneness is a belief. But what the idea or the concept points to is the actuality of it... Just like the taste of Orange described in words is that the actual taste. If someone regurgitates the definition of the Taste when asked about it, that would be their belief, not the experience of the taste.

 

 

 

About your true nature oh, it is what has the thoughts or the imagination. Just like right now if I ask you to think of a tree with a monkey on it. That image is appearing inside of you. Prior to that image that space was there, empty of any image and having the potential of infinite imagery until you collapse it into the tree with the monkey on it. You are that empty capacity.

Amazing answer kind sir 

[JayG84]

33 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

Just like the taste of Orange described in words is that the actual taste. If someone regurgitates the definition of the Taste when asked about it, that would be their belief, not the experience of the taste.

So is Awakening a feeling? Is it a knowing? Is it some other sense that people who haven't awakened aren't aware of? 
What makes someone who comes back from an awakening so sure what they experienced was the truth if whatever your mind conjures up about it just a thought?

[Leo Gura]

It is ABSOLUTE

[allislove]

You can't confuse a breakthrough with something else, because it doesn't happen  

It's like:

OMG, I am God, OMG, I am God.
And then: what just happened? 
Aaa, nothing happened. 
And you just deep smile from your heart 

[JayG84]

3 minutes ago, dimitri said:

You can't confuse a breakthrough with something else, because it doesn't happen  

It's like:

OMG, I am God, OMG, I am God.
And then: what just happened? 
Aaa, nothing happened. 
And you just deep smile from your heart 

How do you know is not "just something that I've never experienced before" 

Like the first time you orgasm. It kind of scares you. Like "What the hell was that?" It feels great, but it ain't the end all be all of existence. But you end up understanding that it is what it is. Lol

[SoonHei]

@Dodo ?

[JayG84]

@Leo Gura But how does absoluteness feel different from any other thing that seems final. When I learned about Atoms and the Big Bang it "felt" absolute....like that "WHOA" feeling...until I started learning about spirituality ? 

I guess it must be a sense we've never used before. Or else everyone would know what absolute means ?

[SoonHei]

@JayG84 i can tell you what it is like...

It is kind of like a realization... Of something that's already the case

What can we call that?

 

Forget comparison for a moment and consider this.

 

If you were in London, and you walk up to someone and you ask them to give you directions to get to London... Now that person is nice enough to tell you that you are already in London. the moment you realize this for yourself, and actually truly realized that yes you already are in London... What can we call that moment? Is that moment an experience? I suppose it is... But what follows that Experience? Do further questions on how to get to London arise after this realization? That you're already there?

 

We may say that you might do what you had planned on doing once we get to London oh, this could be jump up to celebrate, or dance or sing or whatsoever it might be... but asking for further directions to London likely won't be one of them, UNLESS, you again forget somehow that you're in London and that leads you to start seeking again.

 

18 minutes ago, JayG84 said:

So is Awakening a feeling? Is it a knowing? Is it some other sense that people who haven't awakened aren't aware of?

You give me the answer to the London scenario... Is the end of search for London a "feeling"? Or a knowing? Or another sense?

 

It's the same with awakening. Awakening follows any other activity besides searching or seeking for awakening. And just like London, Awakening IS already the case.

[WaveInTheOcean]

@SoonHei gave a beautiful answer.

"What is it about the Awakening experience that makes you Absolutely sure it's not something that you are conceptualizing on a level you are not aware of?"

It's still a good question though.

I think I'd add that the emotional component to the realization just comes out of nowhere. You are just so broken to tears that it can't just be something you conceptualized yourself. And you feel that your consciousness is so expanded and wide that it encompasses all of reality. This is a feeling, a qualia-sensation. It also feels like the insight comes to you from out of nowhere. It's not like you're thinking about Oneness. It just out of no where hits you like a train wreck. And since so many other people experiences the same feeling of Oneness during meditation/psychedelic trips, that must also give it some credit, right?:D

It is indeed like "seeing blue" or "tasting a citrus". You can't taste or see by reading my words. You have to go there yourself. And in order to go there you have to first let completely go. And to let go requires -in my experience- that you are decently filled up with love in your own imaginary ego-body-mind-vessel.

[JayG84]

@SoonHei wow. That's the best I've ever heard anyone explain it. Thanks for that perspective on it. It really helps.

I guess. What I'm saying is, what if you're  looking for London, someone tells you you're in London, but you're actually in Berlin. Then you'd be lost for a while. Haha

But I understand. Thanks again.

[James123]

2 minutes ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

What  is it about the Awakening experience that makes you Absolutely sure it's not something that you are conceptualizing on a level you are not aware of?"

You take personally before awakening , after awakening nothing is personal, because there is nothing here. So just have fun  

[SoonHei]

@WaveInTheOcean lovely!

The cherry on top. Well put friend ❤️

 

2 minutes ago, JayG84 said:

What I'm saying is, what if you're  looking for London, someone tells you you're in London, but you're actually in Berlin.

But that's just it... The highest teaching is that you're never not in London. Ultimately, for the one who thinks he's in Berlin, just the false thought about Berlin falls away and London stands revealed. Berlin is just a mask the mind is putting on London or that one seeks out London. One doesn't travel anywhere to find London, either the mask falls off or is seen thru.

[allislove]

@JayG84 orgasm can lead to a breakthrough too (as anything else), it's just simpler to allow with 5-MeO 

Together with "nothing happened", "non-experience" you have deep insights, e.g. "I am my mother".
It's not just words, you will feel it fully. 
It's going to be such a deep understanding, the same as "this is my hand" if you look at your hand. 

[Forestluv]

@JayG84 I find it helpful to create categories of “knowing”. There is the knowing through facts, evidence etc. and there is a Knowing prior to knowing. 

For example, how to you know that now is now? How do you know that here is here? There is a knowing of “it just is” that comes prior to trying to figure things out, look for evidence, debate with others etc. . . How often do you ask neuroscientists to show you evidence that now is now and now is not yesterday? How often do you ask physicists to validate that you are here now and not on the moon? I would imagine never, because there is an inherent Knowing of Here and Now, prior to any concepts, figuring, questioning, evidence etc. All that stuff is second order (which has value), yet there is also first order Knowing that Knows Itself. 

[JayG84]

5 minutes ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

think I'd add that the emotional component to the realization just comes out of nowhere. You are just so broken to tears that it can't just be something you conceptualized yourself. And you feel that your consciousness is so expanded and wide that it encompasses all of reality. This is a feeling, a qualia-sensation. It also feels like the insight comes to you from out of nowhere. It's not like you're thinking about Oneness. It just out of no where hits you like a train wreck. And since so many other people experiences the same feeling of Oneness during meditation/psychedelic trips, that must also give it some credit, right?:D

It is indeed like "seeing blue" or "tasting a citrus". You can't taste or see by reading my words. You have to go there yourself. And in order to go there you have to first let completely go. And to let go requires -in my experience- that you are decently filled up with love in your own imaginary ego-body-mind-vessel.

Right. I get that I won't get until I see it for myself. I guess I'm just trying to "prepare for it" lol

I just struggle to surrender that something that a lot of people say is the Truth can ever be "known" to be the truth if we continue to deconstruct. 
But I guess it's just, when you know, you know, kinda thing. ?

[SoonHei]

@James123 after awakening. It is ALL personal, without an opposite

This personal is wholeistic - not egoic/partial/body-mind

It is a personal cosmic body/mind - ONE.

Or we can say, it's not personal. The distinction of personal/impersonal collapses and merges into ONE.

 

Just a dance of words

 

[JayG84]

5 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

 

@JayG84 I find it helpful to create categories of “knowing”. There is the knowing through facts, evidence etc. and there is a Knowing prior to knowing. 

For example, how to you know that now is now? How do you know that here is here? There is a knowing of “it just it” that comes prior to trying to figure things out, look for evidence, debate with others etc. . . How often do you ask neuroscientists to show you evidence that now is now and now is not yesterday? How often do you ask physicists to validate that you are here now and not on the moon? I would imagine never, because there is an inherent Knowing of Here and Now, prior to any concepts, figuring, questioning, evidence etc. All that stuff is second order (which has value), yet there is also first order Knowing that Knows Itself. 

 

Right. I get that. Thanks for the perspective ?