Green violence...Is it actually blue/red?

[WorldlySavage]

Hey,

This ties into current events, but I was thinking this for a long while before...

Are green people who advocate and support violence against those who they oppose actually acting at stage green?  

Or are they actually acting from stage blue regressing into red?

Being from an upper middle class background in Canada, I have lots of friends who are Green people, post the latest social justice causes on their facebook, etc. For the most part I agree with them on the causes and recognize their good intent, but find the emotionally hysteric tone of the stuff a little bit much and the actual deep understanding of the actual issues they have kind of shallow.

However, what makes me uneasy is that sometimes some of them post glorification of violence with a "harm the oppressor" narrative... Things like "punch a nazi" or stuff like that... Basically all that antifa stuff.

So are green people, including antifa, who advocate and glorify violence actually acting from Green?  I'm not sure.  

To me, and I live in a very blue country now, Serbia and this stuff reminds me more of the type of dogmatic and nationalistic thinking you can encounter which lead to the wars in the 90's in the region, which you can see started as a blue narrative and regressed into red, with gangsters and warlords and all that stuff...  

So it seems to me that the green people who like violence and antifa and protests and all that stuff are when speaking on this level actually letting out a sort of repressed blue "us as a collective vs. them" dogmatic type thinking and it regresses to red: power, intimidation, ego, shouting, violence.

True green to me is anti-violent, anti-war, more inclusive and more philosophical, hippie vibes, yoga, consciousness, soft spoken and considerate.

What do you guys think?

[Amit]

Completely agree, lots of red-blue in disguise finding authority in green as it's the new trend, without even realizing that it's still red-blue. We can always identify by behaviors of people. Even on this group, I have observed lots of beige and purple stage behaviors tolerated in the name of green. It's time that we start following yellow and reject green. Green is toxic for society. 

[Leo Gura]

Any stage can be violent. It just becomes rarer as you get higher.

Dark shadow tendencies can be present at any stage.

[Preety_India]

 

Those are not real green or at least not following real green. They are simply being emotional idiots.. 

A true green will never support violence. 

They protest peacefully and want changes in the constitution through protest and voting process. 

I'm a true green and I would always want either protest, activism or voting to create change but never violence. 

Protest can be done via non violence methods like hunger strike. 

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Preety_India

[AtheisticNonduality]

26 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 

Those are not real green or at least not following real green. They are simply being emotional idiots.. 

A true green will never support violence. 

They protest peacefully and want changes in the constitution through protest and voting process. 

I'm a true green and I would always want either protest, activism or voting to create change but never violence. 

Protest can be done via non violence methods like hunger strike. 

 

No True Scotsman.

[Preety_India]

@AtheisticNonduality  every stage has true or healthy and unhealthy manifestations. 

A green wanting violence is no true green or is an unhealthy manifestation of green. 

So I don't see the no true Scotsman fallacy. 

 

[Amit]

20 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

No True Scotsman.

that's blue thinking 

[Guest SirVladimir]

All aggression is not a product of Red. That would be a huge over-simplification. Purple will be very defensive if you attack it or try to endanger its home. Yellow can be aggressive if that's what it takes for life to continue. Even Green can resort to violence. Remember that Green is very exclusive. 

Although Leo went into healthy and unhealthy forms of each vMEME, Spiral Dynamics is a much more grandeur model and he knows. You need to go deeper yourself. 

Green is rigid without dogmatism. Red shadow can be responsible for a share of the violence, but it's not the whole picture. Red violence would imply egocentric and impulsive aggressiveness. When Green becomes violent, it's usually defensively. I'd say America missed the opportunity to transfer to a new ALPHA through an evolutionary trait (skipping the GAMMA trap), so a revolutionary and often violent GAMMA stage is what it takes now to reach DELTA, the euréka.  

Edited June 6, 2020 by SirVladimir

[Opo]

Im close to serbia our antifa is different from American antifa. There is a lot of red and blue. They are kinda doing the right thing in a wrong way and for the wrong reason. 

Btw why move to a more regressed place? 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Amit said:

that's blue thinking 

That's orange thinking.

[Carl-Richard]

If you look at this carefully, violence or aggression isn't "inherent" to any particular stage, but rather they're symptoms of certain values being played out in different scenarios. A stage red warlord or a stage blue king isn't aggressive all the time, but they're more likely to display aggression in certain situations, say if their authority is being threatened. Likewise, a stage green person would likely feel aggression when faced with deep unjustice. It's highly dependent on which values are being challenged in which situations.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[Preety_India]

 

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

If you look at this carefully, violence and aggression isn't "inherent" to any particular stage, but rather they're symptoms of certain values being played out in different scenarios. A stage red warlord or a stage blue king aren't aggressive all the time, but they're more likely to display aggression in certain situations, say if their authority is being threatened. Likewise, a stage green person would likely feel aggression when faced with deep unjustice. It's highly dependent on which values are being challenged in which situations.

Very true. 

[Rilles]

The higher up the spiral you go the less need for violence you have, but you still have fists... So it can happen. 

[Forestluv]

12 hours ago, WorldlySavage said:

 

True green to me is anti-violent, anti-war, more inclusive and more philosophical, hippie vibes, yoga, consciousness, soft spoken and considerate.

What do you guys think?

I think you are taking a detached view. Expansive meta views can be very valuable, yet there is also value in immersion.

Imagine having a map of the entire country of Serbia. We cannot get fine details of Belgrade with that map. We would need to temporarily put down that meta map and take out a more detailed map of Belgrade. In doing so, we gain resolution at the expense of the big picture. Yet that is fine. We can zoom into the map of Belgrade for a while, learn some details and then return to the meta map of Serbia and connect some dots. As well, a high resolution map of Belgrade is still limited. To deeply understand Belgrade, we would have to actually visit and experience Belgrade. Ideally, we would live and work within Belgrade. Yet with those that have a very open mind and skills of connection, we could spend time with natives of Belgrade and get a sense of what it is like.

To me, you are trying to be at a meta yellow level (a map of Serbia), without utilizing a higher resolution Green map (a map of Belgrade) and without knowing what it’s like to be Green (to be a native Belgrade person). Ideally, you would live and work in Green (Belgrade) for a while. If this is not possible, it would take empathic skills and imaginative skills to get a deeper sense of what it’s like. 

From a green perspective, what you describe is a cold intellectual mindset. The question becomes wether you want to try and understand from a detached analytical perspective or wether you want to understand from a connected, experiential knowing.  I’m not saying one is better than the other. A map of Serbia is great. A map of Belgrade is great. Actually visiting Belgrade is great. Yet, they are all inter-connected and the deepest levels of understanding will come from an integration of all three levels. For example, if you understood what it’s like to actually be and experience the Green-ness you inquire about, you would know what it’s like. This would allow you to better connect dots at a Yellow level. . . This is one of the gaps for people that try to go from Orange to Yellow. They take a cognitive analytical look at Green (which has value), yet they have a huge gap because they never got direct experience of Being green. 

Consider this mindset:

”It seems to me that the green people who like violence and speaking on this level actually letting out a sort of repressed blue "us as a collective vs. them" dogmatic type thinking and it regresses to red: power, intimidation, ego, shouting, violence.“

Notice the detachment here. . . “It seems to me (1) that green people (2). . . “. You have separated yourself from “green people”. This is indicative of a gap of being green. You don’t know what it’s like to be Green. A person that has developed through green and into yellow would not say “me” and “green people”, because they ARE a green person. They have embodied green. They know exactly what it’s like because it’s them. They have direct access to it. 

To me, you are trying to go yellow without the integration of green. 

As a personal analogy, years ago I wanted to learn about Spanish cultures. I read about Spanish cultures and watched documentaries about Spanish culture. I realized that if I wanted to reach a deeper level, I would need to visit Spanish-speaking countries, which I did. Yet all of this was with English. I finally realized that if I wanted to get to an even deeper level of understanding Spanish culture, I would need to learn to speak Spanish. . . 

 

[Preety_India]

@Serotoninluv such a beautiful and exact explanation. That's what I meant but I couldn't explain it like you did. Thank you so much. 

 

 

[Carl-Richard]

@Serotoninluv I sometimes doubt that I've really explored green to its fullest. I feel like I understand green concerns on an intellectual level, but I don't know if I've actually "felt" it thoroughly like you've pointed out. Then again, I'm an ex-pothead who lives in the greener parts of Europe haha. Is there something I can do about that?

Edited June 6, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[Roy]

Violence in the name of Green values doesn't make it Red or Blue, it's still green.

A Red or Blue wouldn't be using violence for environmentalism or social justice lol.

Violence is a deeper primordial force that can be co-opted and used from any stage and their justifications.

WW2 > The allies fighting back against against Blue for the ideals of liberty, individualism, and freedom of Orange.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Roy

[Carl-Richard]

4 minutes ago, Roy said:

WW2 > The allies fighting back against against Blue for the ideals of liberty, individualism, and freedom of Orange.

Freedom... hmm... reminds me of these memes:

 

 

[Forestluv]

@Carl-Richard hehehe. . . To experience green to it’s fullest would take an infinity. It would be like experience Pi to it’s fullest. . . 

Here is a trick I’ve learned to leverage my limited experience. . . 

In terms of SD, transition into Tier2 involves dissolution/transcendence of the self. All the self identity, self stories, self memories etc. The mind first becomes aware of this “Omg!! It’s all just a personal story appearing Now!!!”. . . Yet appearances and patterns of personality keep appearing. . . What if we purified all that out such that there was not only and absence of attachment/identification to a personal story, there was an absence of a personal story. And absence of any appearance of “me”. In this emptiness, you could be any person. Why not? If the personal story is completely absent, how could you tell the difference between any personal stories? Any personal memories that appear are as good as any other personal memories that appear. . . This vastly expands the playing field. . . 

We all have a sense of this in dreams. As we fall asleep appearances of personal memories and personal identity can disappear. This vastly expands potential. There is no resistance. In a dream, I could become a person protesting in Washington DC, interacting with others protestors and Being it. I may see a protestor friend be targeted by a cop an become outraged. I may wake up in tears. There is a moment in which this can be “captured”, yet it is fleeting. There is a moment, I’m not sure what happened. I’m not sure who I am. And then the old program might kick in. “Oh it was just a dream. Crap, I overslept. I gotta get to work soon”. And *poof* it’s gone. . . Not only can we capture those dreams, we can learn to enter those spaces while awake. A few people have a gift for this. I am not one of those people. I’ve needed a boost with substances and practice with lucid dreaming.

So, this can expand the playing field and allow experiences with far less work. For example, one day I entered this state and became a person that knew about dark spirits. Like a person that lives in a village in South America. It was totally obvious what energetic spirits are like and why people were afraid of being possessed by dark spirits, because I was experiencing it. I understood why people go to Shamans to exorcise dark spirits through chanting, incense etc. I understood what it’s like because I became that person like a dream character. This is not something “I” believe in. Yet that “I” was absent. This gave me a peak into this realm. And it saved me a lot of time and money. I didn’t have to travel to South America and live in a village to get a taste of it.

Yet there are limitations as well. For example, I will not become a character that speaks Chinese fluently. There are certain limitations, yet the potential is much more expansive than most people are aware. 

[Carl-Richard]

@Serotoninluv So in other words, I just need to develop a vivid sense of imagination in order to simulate an experience that is free from my own limited identity? Is this what empaths do?