Self Realization vs Self Actualization

[WisdomSeeker]

@Leo Gura talks about zen, kriya yoga, yoga and enlightenment and all of the leaders from these belief systems/philosophies talk about there not being a need to actualize anything, but instead "realize" what is already here (truth/reality/god). So, why then is there even a need for actualization. None of these leaders seemed to emphasize actualization at all. The concept of actualization seems to be more of a western, phenomenological, materialist perspective. Should this concept be decommissioned?

Edited June 4, 2020 by WisdomSeeker
Updated @

[Carl-Richard]

If nothing is actualized, there is nothing to be realized.

[hyruga]

It all depends on what are the definitions of realization and actualization in YOUR OWN MIND. Everybody's definition can be different. 

For example, a school teacher may 'realise' she needs to read more textbooks and facts, make an analysis to ensure to a high degree of accuracy she is not spewing nonsense in class.

Realising it does not mean she will do it either. She may end up partying and then goes back to school, forgot some stuff and tell everyone 'A snake is a mammal because it eats chickens just like you.' Nonsense. 

[WisdomSeeker]

@hyruga @Pookie @Carl-Richard

1. Self-Realization

“the knowing — in body, mind, and soul — that we are one with the omnipresence of God; that we do not have to pray that it come to us, that we are not merely near it at all times, but that God’s omnipresence is our omnipresence; that we are just as much a part of Him now as we ever will be. All we have to do is improve our knowing.”

- Yogananda

“Your own Self-Realization is the greatest service you can render the world.”

“There is neither creation nor destruction, neither destiny nor free will, neither path nor achievement. This is the final truth.”

“Realisation is not acquisition of anything new nor is it a new faculty. It is only removal of all camouflage”

- Ramana Maharishi

There's a million other quotes like this from the Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching and from the Bhagavad Gita, etc. None of which emphasize goal accomplishment on the materialist level, in fact they would argue attachment to a goal would be a distraction from self-realization

2. Self-Actualization

"Self-actualization, in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, is the highest level of psychological development where the "actualization" of full personal potential is achieved, which occurs only after basic and mental needs have been fulfilled."

"to BECOME more and more what one is, to BECOME everything that one is capable of becoming.

My issue is that one is about becoming vs realizing what one already is. They seem in direct conflict with eachother. Also, becoming would imply you are still attached to your material identity, even if it is an evolving identity, vs detaching from that material identity and realizing you are something more (self-realization).

[WisdomSeeker]

@Pookie I agree it seems that they can be.  Just for my own edification, what you've provided are the more basic needs of maslows hierarchy of needs, food, shelter, security, etc,  that's arguably stuff you need just to survive. But as you go more up the pyramid, I think things like status or even sex in the case of Yogananda and Ramana Maharishi are not needs and are actually distractions to realization. Even  with actualization, what is one actualizing? And furthermore, it sounds like Leo has emphasized that realization is the most important, but then discusses that actualization is important too, which my understanding is that the Yoganandas, Ramana Maharishis and Buddhas that advocated for self-realization would say actualization isn't even a thing, it's a distraction, and that all the other needs are necessities for basic survival.

Edited June 4, 2020 by WisdomSeeker

[Carl-Richard]

@WisdomSeeker Yes, you have the choice to be like Ramana Mahararshi and sit in a cave for your entire life, but just know that you have other oppurtunities that can be actualized. Self-realization and self-actualization aren't contradictory concepts: they play in tandem. The former is the knowing of your true nature, and the latter is the manifestation of that knowing in the world. Ramana's quote "your own Self-Realization is the greatest service you can render the world" is meaningless if you don't manifest your realization in the world.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[WisdomSeeker]

@Carl-Richard i think respectfully that is where a I fundamentally disagree , you said "Yes, you have the choice to be like Ramana Mahararshi and sit in a cave for your entire life." 1)  That's an oversimplification of what he did and I think it undermines his impact. It's a view I would expect from someone that adheres to the materialist paradigm. 

2) Can you give me some examples of self-actualized people?

3) "'your own Self-Realization is the greatest service you can render the world' is meaningless if you don't manifest your realization in the world." Again, manifesting your realization in the world, can you explain what this looks like? Is you the way this realization manifests something tangible?

[WisdomSeeker]

"You need to be able to know what you honestly really want, whether it be from the needs in Maslow's pyramid or awakening itself. Really ask yourself why you want awakening if that's what you're seeking." @PookieThe whole purpose of life from a spiritual perspective is to awaken, am I wrong? After transcending basic survival it seems that things like, fame and status are more egoic components not needs. If the world without spirituality (or at lower levels of consciousness) is a never ending cycle of survival and fleeting pleasures, why wouldn't I want to awaken?

[hyruga]

Realization is an important step but people realises all the time.

You can realise things all the time. You realise you need to improve your technical skills. Then after reading a book on your job's technical stuff, you realise it is not enough so you need to read more. And then you realise other stuff like staff management.

To be truly actualised, you need to realise and understand many things. Most people who think they are 'actualized' are actually only master in a very small domain and it is only their ego telling them they are actualized.

Edited June 5, 2020 by hyruga

[Carl-Richard]

@WisdomSeeker What would you say is the difference between say a person like Sadhguru and Ramana Maharshi?

[WisdomSeeker]

@Carl-Richard honestly haven't thought about that, but if I were to answer they both seem self- realized to me. I would say Sadhguru is less isolated, and interacts with the world more. He also had a wife and child, ramana didn't. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by WisdomSeeker

[Carl-Richard]

@WisdomSeeker You're onto something there. Sadhguru has a level of self-realization, but he also has a deep level of self-actualization. He is involved in many different aspects of worldy affairs, highly resourceful, highly skilled and experienced in many areas. You can argue that Ramana has a deeper level of self-realization, but the sheer impact that Sadhguru has on his environment is on a totally different level. The worldy impact of his self-realization is global and multi-faceted because of his high level of self-actualization.

Ken Wilber uses the distinction between "growing up" and "waking up". Western self-help emphasizes the former and eastern the latter. One is associated with materialism and worldy impact, the other is mysticism and spiritual growth. Both are essential for living a fruitful life (and things like "cleaning up": emotional/trauma work etc.). How much you're willing to emphasize each aspect is up to you.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[WisdomSeeker]

@Carl-RichardExactly, western society has a biased for material accomplishments. And it's almost implicit on this site what I hear (although never said directly), is the acknowledgement and emphasis on the importance of the material accomplishments/ self-actualization vs the self-realization. Ramana Maharshi, couternintuitively, in my opinion had just as big of an impact to the outside world as Sadhguru, even though he was more isolated. I mean honestly, it's hard to say if Sadhguru would even have the impact he has without Ramana. He even has cited a number of times Ramana's influence had on him. Ramana's influence though subtle is just as profound. This is something that goes over the heads of most westerners because we usually only see tangible accomplishments. It's pretty obvious, however, our western society beats us over the head and inundates us with the material accomplishment and the self-actualization paradigm. I'm thinking like a Tony Robbins type perspective, and honestly I don't think the guy has the same level of bliss as someone like Ramana. Some of his stuff is helpful, but there is a significant amount of marketing. He teaches you to work toward material goals, yet those are fleeting. I believe self-actualization should be a by product built off the foundation of self-realization not the other way around and that attachments to any accomplishments should be as outcome independent  (or atleast non neurotic as possible) like taoism and the bhagavad gita say. It's funny you bring up Sadhguru he talks about this very thing all of the time and would probably even emphasize realization over actualization.  I've had material success and accomplished most of the general material goals that people aim for in their lives and most of those things are a fleeting sense of happiness, but to have an awakening, that's something that can never go away, sure you can fluctuate  through different levels of consciousness even within a day to day , but to know you've experienced that realization, yeah you can never go back to seeing the world like before. and being able to help others realize, using your experiences from your own journey, what more important work in the world is there?  

Edited June 5, 2020 by WisdomSeeker

[Carl-Richard]

@WisdomSeeker You're right that Ramana's realization has had a huge impact on primarily spreading the word of enlightenment, but Sadhguru's realization has had a concrete multi-faceted impact (economical, social, environmental etc.), exactly because of his worldy involvement in those things. Even though self-actualization has its dark sides, be careful not to demonize it too much. The path to self-realization is also riddled with delusion and dysfunction. It's all a mixed bag.