can we explain psychedelics under the materialist paradigm ?

[Someone here]

6 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

You are not seeing the relationship between explanation and that which is explained. 

I meant mapping reality. Saying that science can't give accurate maps about reality ( not 100% accurate tho) is just false and I won't even argue about that.   Now the map is NOT the territory but that's another topic for another day.  I meant within the context of just mapping reality. 

[The observer]

1 minute ago, Someone here said:

So I hope you refrain from debating with that particular "someone" and trying to prove him wrong because I love ya bro and I want you here 

I wasn't implying that "someone" in particular ? just saying generally.

[Someone here]

5 minutes ago, The observer said:

Science didn't actually explain anything at all. Literally nothing.

Still, it's definitely capable of creating value out of translating one form of perception into another and interchangeably.

To make this conversation solid, could you provide one example where you think science did explain something, so that we can deconstruct it with you?

I'm well aware that it can't give ultimate explanation. But we do have limited partial explanations that's for sure. The examples are just countless you name it.  But then again here we are drifting away from the original topic. This topic is specifically about explaining psychedelics scientifically. 

[The observer]

11 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I'm well aware that it can't give ultimate explanation. But we do have limited partial explanations that's for sure. The examples are just countless you name it.  But then again here we are drifting away from the original topic. This topic is specifically about explaining psychedelics scientifically. 

Okay, let's stay on topic. How does science explain psychedelics?

And what do you mean exactly by limited partial explanations? And ultimate explanations?

Edited June 4, 2020 by The observer

[Someone here]

9 minutes ago, The observer said:

Okay, let's stay on topic. How does science explain psychedelics?

And what do you mean exactly by limited partial explanations?

What I mean by limited partial explanation is exactly that.. Limited partial explanation! . For instance we don't have ultimate explanation of where the hell did the universe come from and why but we do have a relatively correct map "the big bang" explaing how it came about. 

Regarding psychedelics.. They actually don't have a proper explanation yet because the lack of the studying on them. But for now they understand it just affect perception centers in the brain which makes you hallucinate all kinds of stuff. And that's all that there is to it.  Again this a partial limited explanation like anything else.. You can keep pushing the question further and eventually will discover we don't actually have an explanation for anything. But we have to distinguish between the ultimate explanations and the relative ones. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Someone here

[The observer]

1 minute ago, Someone here said:

We have to distinguish between the ultimate explanations and the relative ones. 

Yes, please! I want you to deeply contemplate this distinction. What does it actually mean?

2 minutes ago, Someone here said:

What I mean by limited partial explanation is exactly that.. Limited partial explanation!

This does not help.

3 minutes ago, Someone here said:

For instance we don't have ultimate explanation of where the hell did the universe come from and why but we do have a relatively correct map "the big bang" explaing how it came about.

What if there was no ultimate explanation? What if the universe didn't actually come from 'somewhere'? What if the big bang is merely 0.0000000000001% or less of the universe?

What is the universe?

[4201]

On 03/06/2020 at 0:29 AM, Someone here said:

we actually can observe the  correlation between what the person  sees under the effect of psychedelics and changes in the responsible parts of the brain (for generating perceptions). it's not completely understood yet but i think we will be able to have a material explanation in the near future as studies on the brain advances further. 

what do you guys think? 

You may be interested in learning neuroscience and neural networks for yourself rather than going at war with people for who "psychedelics are unexplainable" is part of their belief system and identity.

I did study neuroscience for fun, in a very casual manner. Not enough to explain anything to anyone but enough to let go of the HPPD worries I had at the time and give me a bit of satisfaction. 

On a more personal level, everything I've learned in neuroscience and the direct experiences I got on psychedelics do not conflict one another. No self is just the most optimal way of running any neural network at a specific task and ego is just the most optimal way to maximize chances of survival. Someone who would make AI with neural nets to make monkeys that live together, hunt and have sex in a simulation would probably run in very similar conclusions. (Sadly our computer power is not enough right now to simulate billions of neurons effectively).

I do think that mapping parts of the brain with thoughts is very weak though. Sure you can observe what kind of thinking is going with that but you will never get the details. The brain is a very dynamic organ, things change a lot constantly in it. I feel like trying to get insights out of brain region mapping is like trying to figure out which application I'm running on my computer by trying to hear which hardware components are working.

What I think will happen in the future is generalizations of the results found by spirituality and the psychedelic community as mathematical properties of neural networks. Perhaps at some point we'll stop looking at neural networks like total black boxes and try to understand more what's happening (a bit more like we do in computer vision).

Edited June 4, 2020 by 4201

[Forestluv]

55 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I meant mapping reality. Saying that science can't give accurate maps about reality ( not 100% accurate tho) is just false and I won't even argue about that.   Now the map is NOT the territory but that's another topic for another day.  I meant within the context of just mapping reality. 

I understand you meant mapping reality. If you cannot see and observe the relationship between the explanation and the explained, you will have a distorted view.

You like to use science as some type of authority. How well do you actually understand science? How many hours have you actually been in a lab conducting science? How many hours have you spent interpreting your empirical data, modifying your hypothesis, re-designing experiments, and creating and presenting your models and getting feedback on your models? I am a science professor and have spent about 60,000 hours immersed in actually conducting science. To me, you have a very surface level understanding of what science is and massively over-estimate your understanding. It’s like you’ve taken two hours of Chinese language instruction and you now think you can speak Chinese, understand Chinese history and culture and know what it’s like to live in China and be a Chinese person. 

[Inliytened1]

19 hours ago, Someone here said:

 

 Regarding awakening.. I agree with fred (the nonduality teacher they talked about in the other thread) that we are already awake. There's nothing to Awaken to. 

This is false.  God or Consciousness can become directly conscious of itself.   This will be the total annihilation of all differences.

The unawakened God is IT now but the problem is God is not directly conscious of itself.   Its paradoxical because of Oneness.  But the direct realization of Oneness is awakening.

[The observer]

7 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

This is false.  God or Consciousness can become directly conscious of itself.   This will be the total annihilation of all differences.

The unawakened God is IT now but the problem is God is not directly conscious of itself.   Its paradoxical because of Oneness.  But the direct realization of Oneness is awakening.

@Someone here That's a good example of what I was referring to.

[Inliytened1]

@Someone here who knows perhaps fred may be using reverse psychology or counterintuitiveness to awaken his students.  Because awakening needs to come not from a place of the ego.   It has to catch an ego by surprise.  Ever notice things fall into place when you don't try too hard?  That is why it is said awakening is found not by seeking.

But psychedelics can apparently just completely overwhelm the ego.

 

[ivankiss]

42 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I understand you meant mapping reality. If you cannot see and observe the relationship between the explanation and the explained, you will have a distorted view.

You like to use science as some type of authority. How well do you actually understand science? How many hours have you actually been in a lab conducting science? How many hours have you spent interpreting your empirical data, modifying your hypothesis, re-designing experiments, and creating and presenting your models and getting feedback on your models? I am a science professor and have spent about 60,000 hours immersed in actually conducting science. To me, you have a very surface level understanding of what science is and massively over-estimate your understanding. It’s like you’ve taken two hours of Chinese language instruction and you now think you can speak Chinese, understand Chinese history and culture and know what it’s like to live in China and be a Chinese person. 

This just made my day. 

Bravo!

[Galyna]

On 6/2/2020 at 11:29 PM, Someone here said:

what do you guys think? 

Here is my intake on it. I am sure that psychedelics can dissolve your ego, they can have healing power, give you bunch of insights and deepen your work on the path to Enlightenment, however I have some doubts and will be talking from my personal experience. Read between the lines and connect the dots: 

A lot of people on this forum claimed that they have received some kind of revelation about God, Love and Infinity when doing psychedelics. OK..no problem,and I took it as a face value, however, when I started to interact with them through this forum, I have noticed a particular thing: they have not mastered their egos in a way how high conscious people should. No shadow work, no self-awareness, none of that. (I hope I am not hurting anyone's feelings here) I am trying to be objective. Actually, by approaching those people and really interacting with them, I begin to doubt in a powerful effects of psychedelics on ego. I was like OK, something is not quite right to me. I have never taken any psychedelics but yet I have some integrity and trying to be honest. I can preach about God and Infinite Love all day, but if my actions does not consistent with my words, all my preaching will fly out the window and be discredited. 

SO....do you really know what they are talking about? That is the question. 

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Galyna

[Carl-Richard]

3 minutes ago, Galyna said:

they have not mastered their egos in a way how high conscious people should. 

How so?

[Galyna]

47 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

How so?

I have been asking this question for quite a while. "How so?"

I do not know, I have not taken psychedelics. 

But lesson is learned. Taking psychedelics does not mean or imply being a spiritual person who is mastering or dissolving their ego. 

I do not care how much psychedelics you take, if you lack some human interaction basics, to me that speaks more than any of your claims about God, Love and Infinity. 

Actions, my dear, actions....words do not cost a thing.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Galyna

[4201]

35 minutes ago, Galyna said:

A lot of people on this forum claimed that they have received some kind of revelation about God, Love and Infinity when doing psychedelics. OK..no problem,and I took it as a face value, however, when I started to interact with them through this forum, I have noticed a particular thing: they have not mastered their egos in a way how high conscious people should. No shadow work, no self-awareness, none of that. (I hope I am not hurting anyone's feelings here) I am trying to be objective. Actually, by approaching those people and really interacting with them, I begin to doubt in a powerful effects of psychedelics on ego. I was like OK, something is not quite right to me. I have never taken any psychedelics but yet I have some integrity and trying to be honest. I can preach about God and Infinite Love all day, but if my actions does not consistent with my words, all my preaching will fly out the window and be discredited. 

Be careful about the bias in the population sample you are taking. People that are preaching about the benefits of their experiences might not be a representative sample of the entire psychedelic community.

The only reason I'm here is because I'm backsliding and running away from my problems. If I were in a peak state I probably would do something else with my time.

[Galyna]

Another 5 cents:

@Leo Gura

I do not get one thing: how imaginary psychedelic that is given to imaginary ego ( notice! both do not exist in the absolute sense) can trigger true awakening and buy you a "ticket to the Moon"? (Where the Moon is a non-dual state, so called Truth.)

It is like handing a lottery ticket to the cartoon character through the screen, where the ticket is a paper and the character is just a bunch of pixels on the screen. Semantically speaking, these are two different dimensions. One is 2D another is 3D and the Truth is a 4D ( hypothetically speaking) 

I can not wrap my mind around it, since all is matrix (lets just call it this way) and psychedelics are a part of it, but they can pull you out of this matrix.

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Galyna

[Galyna]

5 minutes ago, 4201 said:

People that are preaching about the benefits of their experiences might not be a representative sample of the entire psychedelic community.

I was not talking about the benefits, they preach about...

I was talking about a falsehood of their perception for Love, God and Infinity. 

[4201]

3 minutes ago, Galyna said:

I was not talking about the benefits, they preach about...

I was talking about a falsehood of their perception for Love, God and Infinity. 

I apologize if I have misinterpreted what you said.

What I mean is that while you are right saying people that are preaching are not living to their full potential (and thus not very woke), you are only noticing the people that are preaching because the others are... living life to their full potential (and thus probably doing more meaningful things).

Mostly, statistically. There are some very awakened people on the forum too, yet they are more focused about helping than talking about themselves IME. That's not me btw, I'm just trying to be right again right now lol

Edited June 4, 2020 by 4201

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Galyna said:

I do not get one thing: how imaginary psychedelic that is given to imaginary ego ( notice! both do not exist in the absolute sense) can it trigger true awakening and buy you a "ticket to the Moon"?

Contemplate how a bullet (an imaginary thing) going through your skull (an imaginary thing) can kill you (an imaginary thing).

How come in a dream you are able to walk on the floor when the floor is imaginary? Shouldn't you fall through?

- - - - -

When everything is imagination, it all works out just fine.