can we explain psychedelics under the materialist paradigm ?

[Member]

7 hours ago, Someone here said:

If you define it as "a state of being that Is prior to and Independent from perception" then the answer is YES. 

So do you think that plants, trees or stones exist independently without any "eye" to see them? I'm having a hard time believing that as it makes no sense. And what do you mean by "a state of being"? There are infinite possibilities and states of being. To which one you're referring to?

Edited June 6, 2020 by Member

[Leo Gura]

@Member You can become a stone or a tree and see what that feels like.

Stop talking about it and DO IT!

[Member]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

@Member You can become a stone or a tree and see what that feels like.

Stop talking about it and DO IT!

Trees and stones don't feel, that's a human attribute. It surprises me to hear that you also think they exist independently of your perception.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Member said:

It surprises me to hear that you also think they exist independently of your perception.

They don't.

You have no idea what perception is, nor for that matter what a tree is or what you are.

You basically know nothing.

Feeling is not a human attribute, it is a universal attribute of Consciousness.

[Member]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Feeling is not a human attribute, it is a universal attribute of Consciousness.

But there was no feeler prior to my existence, so how can I be a tree when it is a creation of my mind?

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Member said:

But there was no feeler prior to my existence, so how can I be a tree when it is a creation of my mind?

You have always existed. You just forgot.

How can you be a human when that is a creation of your mind?

When you look at a tree you already are it, you just think you are a human, which clouds your perception.

[Member]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You have always existed. You just forgot.

How can you be a human when that is a creation of your mind?

When you look at a tree you already are it, you just think you are a human, which clouds your perception.

Ok but how can it be a state of being prior to and independent from my perception if I'm the universe exploring itself? Not trying to be an ass but I have the same dilemma as this one:

 

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Member said:

Ok but how can it be a state of being prior to and independent from my perception if I'm the universe exploring itself? Not trying to be an ass but I have the same dilemma as this one:

 

It's not independent. You will become it. Just like how you become horny or hungry.

[Someone here]

2 hours ago, Member said:

So do you think that plants, trees or stones exist independently without any "eye" to see them? I'm having a hard time believing that as it makes no sense. And what do you mean by "a state of being"? There are infinite possibilities and states of being. To which one you're referring to?

You are repeating the same question lol. 

I told ya it depends on what do you mean by "exist".  What is "exist"? . If you from the very beginning assume that existence =perception =Consciousness.. Then it's obvious the answer is NO. There's nothing  existing outside of perception if that's what you define as existence. 

As a matter of fact.. This field of perception is the only thing you know of reality.. You never encounterd anything "outside" of it. So if we just assume for a moment that there is something outside of it and independent from it.. It's still would be impossible for you to imagine that state of being or make sense of it  because it's something you never encounterd in your life.  Think of colors for example.. You can only imagine a color that you can already see in your perception field.   Something existing outside of your awareness is like a color you have never seen before.  You don't  know whether it exist or not and also you can't imagine it or make sense of it because you've never encountered such a thing before. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Someone here

[Javfly33]

9 minutes ago, Someone here said:

So if we just assume for a moment that there is something outside of it and independent from it.. It's still would be impossible for you to imagine that state of being or make sense of it  because it's something you never encounterd in your life.  Think of colors for example.. You can only imagine a color that you can already see in your perception field.   Something existing outside of your awareness is like a color you have never seen before.  You don't  know whether it exist or not and also you can't imagine it or make sense of it because you've never encountered such a thing before. 

Very good 

Although I would warn you that you are still confusing imagination with existence.

The fact that you have seen yellow doesn´t mean that yellow exists. Because existence is actual. Anything else other than actual-right now is imagination. Existence must EXIST RIGHT NOW. If not is not existence! Is imagination again!

If yellow is not existing (in your current experience) then yellow doesn´t exist. Imagining the colour yellow is not the same as actually yellow existing.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Javfly33

[Someone here]

7 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Very good 

Although I would warn you that you are still confusing imagination with existence.

The fact that you have seen yellow doesn´t mean that yellow exists. Because existence is actual. Anything else other than actual-right now is imagination. Existence must EXIST RIGHT NOW. If not is not existence! Is imagination again!

If yellow is not existing (in your current experience) then yellow doesn´t exist. Imagining the colour yellow is not the same as actually yellow existing.

It's all existence. Imagination is a category of existence.  Actual yellow exists and imaginary yellow exists. The first exists as an object. The second exists as an image in your mind.   The imaginary is derived from the actual. Meaning you can't imagine a shape or a color or a sound etc that you haven't perceived in actuality before. 

That's how I see it. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Someone here

[Javfly33]

30 minutes ago, Someone here said:

It's all existence. Imagination is a category of existence. 

Yes. But that is a very important implication.

I do make the difference between imagination and existence because notice that for example when people think "Out there is New York 3000km from here, because I visited in the past and I verified it exists" the thought exists, but the trick is that the mind actually thinks that the thought is pointing towards something real.

There´s nothing outside existence, and existence can only be what it exists. 

New York doesn´t exist, unless it truly exists. New york can happen inside imagination, but imagination is tricky. Imagination can´t point towards existence because imagination is part of existence.

Is kind of a hand trying to grab itself.

[Nak Khid]

 imagination and reality are relative concepts that the brain uses as tools to do their best to predict future circumstances or intrpet current ones as to whether or not they will have  potential sensory consequences 

Magicians and con men can disrupt these expectations

[Someone here]

@Javfly33 it's a pragmatic assumption for you to be able to function in life. 

Try to deprogram your mind from the assumption that the world behind your back exists even when you are not seeing it.. And say good bye to your entire sense of reality. 

Truth is not the same from all POVs. There is the absolute POV and then there is the pragmatic and relative POV. From the absolute POV you actually don't know Jack shit about anything lol other than this.  From the relative POV you are forced to make all kinds of assumptions to be able to function in life. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Someone here

[Nak Khid]

@Someone here

You asked can we explain psychedelics under the materialist paradigm ?

Have you concluded that scientific experiments cannot reveal anything about psychedelics? 

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Nak Khid said:

@Someone here

You asked can we explain psychedelics under the materialist paradigm ?

Have you concluded that scientific experiments cannot reveal anything about psychedelics? 

No. 

The video that I posted in the OP revealed very clearly that there is a direct correlation between how the chemicals in psychedelics affect perception centers in the brain which leads to very vivid hallucinations. 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Someone here

[Nak Khid]

10 minutes ago, Someone here said:

No. 

The video that I posted in the OP revealed very clearly that there is a direct correlation between how the chemicals in psychedelics affect perception centers in thr brain which leads to very vivid hallucinations. 

I'm surprised. I thought you gave up the idea since you stopped following up on it 

[zeroISinfinity]

@Nak Khid Be openminded my man. Drop that materialistic BS. 

YOU are Infinite Love. 

[Someone here]

3 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

I'm surprised. I thought you gave up the idea since you stopped following up on it 

It's not about giving up.I'm not fighting over ideas . That's just one Way of looking at it the scientific approach. Under the materialist paradigm that's the explanation for psychedelics. What if you don't buy the materialist paradigm in the first place as it's the case with most people in this forum.?.   What if you don't believe there is such a thing as "the brain" outside of your imagination of it?  What if correlation doesn't mean causality?. These can take you to a different paradigm.   I'm not trying to be biased to any specific paradigm. I'm just presenting the material explanation of psychedelics because some people think it can't be explained by material philosophy. For different perspectives to merge and see who's right. 

[Galyna]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

This field of perception is the only thing you know of reality.

First of, this topic is so fascinating. I love love love love this discussion, who knows maybe it will help me to breakthrough. 

Perception --->is awareness through the senses which are---->certain feelings by which the body perceives an external stimulus--->is an event or a thing which is outside of "your subjective" experience. But only the mind can register that external stimulus. 

What is the mind then?  

Thanks.