can we explain psychedelics under the materialist paradigm ?

[Nak Khid]

On 6/3/2020 at 0:29 AM, Someone here said:

we actually can observe the  correlation between what the person  sees under the effect of psychedelics and changes in the responsible parts of the brain (for generating perceptions). it's not completely understood yet but i think we will be able to have a material explanation in the near future as studies on the brain advances further. 

what do you guys think? 

 A chemical, which is material,  can be taken into a person's bloodstream and cause a psychedelic experience.
So what do you mean by "explanation"  other than that? 

[Someone here]

17 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

 A chemical, which is material,  can be taken into a person's bloodstream and cause a psychedelic experience.
So what do you mean by "explanation"  other than that? 

Does correlation equal causality?. 

[Nak Khid]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

Does correlation equal causality?. 

Does alcohol cause drunkenness?  
 

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Nak Khid said:

Does alcohol cause drunkenness?  
 

In this waking state it does. In a dream reality I might drink alcohol and become even more alert and aware.. Who knows? 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Someone here

[Nahm]

15 hours ago, Galyna said:

 I can ultimately only trust my own experience. That is all I know!

Exactly. Is there really an I who knows anything, an I which trusts my ‘experience’...or perhaps infinity identifying with the finite mind it appears as? “Your” direct experience of “death” is ABSOLUTELY ZERO. The reality of death known, is that of an apparent thought. Simple. Obvious. ‘Third eye’s’ blowing wide open, no room for doubt & the believing of thoughts, awareness of the nature of such arising thought is enough. Remain empty. Nothing need be done, figured out, nor solved. Lovingly laugh ‘with’ such ‘thoughts’ while ‘you’ tell ‘them’, to fuck off. It could be found there are no “thoughts” at all. What’s in a name, a label, really? No thing. 

@Someone here Waking state is a thought. There are no states. 

[Someone here]

50 minutes ago, Nahm said:

 

@Someone here Waking state is a thought. There are no states. 

Get used to it.  This forum contains nothing but thoughts

[Nahm]

5 hours ago, Someone here said:

In this waking state it does. In a dream reality I might drink alcohol and become even more alert and aware.. Who knows? 

This is a ‘dream reality’, obscured from itself by itself as the “thought” waking state. 

There is no reality or existence to a “waking state”. 

[Galyna]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

Is there really an I who knows anything

I will try to go as deep as I can. I will describe you, or at least try, how it feels

So...feels like a net to me, there is a tapping into the net when knowledge is needed. How knowledge appears? Certain sensation aka thoughts. 

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

“Your” direct experience of “death” is ABSOLUTELY ZERO. The reality of death known, is that of an apparent thought.

  The mind takes and twists this concept as if death is going to happen sometime in the future. Future is a thought

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

It could be found there are no “thoughts” at all. What’s in a name, a label, really? No thing. 

Should I contemplate deeper what language is? It feels like there is an inner dialog, I am trying to understand what word is? I am drawing in the semantics and definitions.

A linguistics is "the scientific study of language and its structure..."

A language is "the method of human communication, either spoken or written, consisting of the use of words in a structured and conventional way."

A word is "a single distinct meaningful element of speech or writing, used with others (or sometimes alone) to form a sentence and typically shown with a space on either side when written or printed."

A speech is "the expression of or the ability to express thoughts and feelings by articulate sounds."

Thoughts are "the action or process of thinking." or "ideas"

Thinking is "the process of using one's mind to consider or reason about something."

A mind is....basically a thought...vicious circle. 

Bunch of an abstract ideas that were built to reinforce more thinking and more confusion. 

Please guide me, I am stuck...

Thanks for helping to osmose these things. 

 

 

 

 

[Someone here]

9 minutes ago, Nahm said:

This is a ‘dream reality’, obscured from itself by itself as the “thought” waking state. 

There is no reality or existence to a “waking state”. 

Cool thought story.

Let it go. There is no such things in direct experience. All that exists Is this.  And this is not a "dream reality". A "Dream reality" is a limited and relative notion appearing within this. 

Seriously though.. How many times do we have to repeat this point?  All concepts are  concepts but this is not a concept. This is this. However some concepts are relatively correct and accurate in describing this.  We have a thought story called " gravity exists and you can't just  jump and fly". In actuality there is no such thing as "gravity".   There is what there is. But that conceptual statement is not a bunch of BS just because of the fact that it is a conceptual statement!! There is no saying you can jump and fly. Try it and see. 

It's not rocket science. Let's talk about something less obvious lol. 

And btw saying reality is a Dream doesn't mean anything unless you explain to me what exactly do you mean.  Reality is real. It's not an illusion. Because here it is.  Even if it's a dream there must be a dreamer. If it's an illusion there must be someone that's being deluded. All these are relative notions and they don't mean anything as absolutes. They require their opposite. 

And again I think all that is off-topic. I would rather like to discuss the original topic of this thread. 

[Forestluv]

@Nahm I’m curious about your impressions on a couple of things:

— Can the relationship change such that thoughts aren’t “thoughts”? A sense of one inter-related happening arising. Feelings, thoughts, intuition, dog barks are all swirling around, prior to thoughts being distinguished as “thoughts”.

— There are times I’m having a conversation with someone in which there is simply listening and speaking. There is no internal thought dialog in the mind. Words are simply coming out of my mouth. If we look back on it, it would seem like I was sharing “thoughts”. Yet that’s not what the relationship was at the time. There was simply speaking words happening, similar to blinking eyes happening and moving fingers happening. 

— In some ways, the appearances of images seem more like thoughts than thoughts. There are periods in which there are no linguistic thoughts, just images. Then there is an awareness shift and it seems like I was thinking. Yet it also seems like it was thoughtless imagination. Again, it seems prior to categorizing as “thought”.  

[Galyna]

4 minutes ago, Someone here said:

All concepts are  concepts but this is not a concept. This is this. 

Notice that we can not move any further, with regards how you define it.

It sounds as an absurd, but we should not be too pedantic, thus languages is needed at some point to lead you to that spot where you must drop it. 

[Galyna]

10 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

In some ways, the appearances of images seem more like thoughts than thoughts. There are periods in which there are no linguistic thoughts, just images. Then there is an awareness shift and it seems like I was thinking. Yet it also seems like it was thoughtless imagination. Again, it seems prior to categorizing as “thought”.  

Wow, thank you for a nice interpretation, you put it way better and plausible. It is exactly how it feels to me from time to time.

I wonder about it myself. If you try to use scientific methods to define it, they would say that perception is always late and occurs after any event has happened. But again, I am not in a position to tell you this since I am not a scientist. 

[Someone here]

11 minutes ago, Galyna said:

Notice that we can not move any further, with regards how you define it.

It sounds as an absurd, but we should not be too pedantic, thus languages is needed at some point to lead you to that spot where you must drop it. 

I'm well aware of the limitations of thoughts and concepts.  I don't have a problem with that. But imagine how would you function in life if you respond to anything that's being said to you by " these are just meaningless thoughts they don't exist in reality". That's the extreme on the opposite end of the spectrum. If there's people who mistake their thoughts for reality on one side.. On the other side there are people who are very attached to distinguish their thoughts from reality to the point they can't see reality anymore and they just see thoughts. 

[Galyna]

11 minutes ago, Someone here said:

But imagine how would you function in life if you respond to anything that's being said to you by " these are just meaningless thoughts they don't exist in reality".

Sure, you are absolutely have a right to say this. However, I think he is just trying to be as direct as possible to lead us to this realization - to strip away any idea, notion, concept...to basically undress your mind and leave it naked. When the mind is naked, it will collapse and your awareness will turn inward.

 

11 minutes ago, Someone here said:

That's the extreme on the opposite end of the spectrum. If there's people who mistake their thoughts for reality on one side.. On the other side there are people who are very attached to distinguish their thoughts from reality to the point they can't see reality anymore and they just see thoughts. 

And that is fine. An Ego needs to balance in the dual world, otherwise this illusion is not possible. 

Please let me know if I've understood your idea correctly. 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Galyna

[Someone here]

1 minute ago, Galyna said:

Sure, you are absolutely have a right to say this. However, I think he is just trying to be as direct as possible to lead us to this realization - to strip away any idea, notion, concept...to basically undress your mind and leave it naked. When the mind is naked, it will collapse and your awareness will turn inward.

 

And that is fine. An Ego needs to balance in the dual world, otherwise this illusion is not possible. 

Please let me know if I understand your idea correctly. 

 

My main point is this.. Reality is not a thought construct. Thought constructs are inevitable parts of reality.  Don't think that if you lose your language and all your conceptual thoughts that reality as a whole will collapse.. That's simply not true. You will still have other perceptions. Expect they won't be labeled as such anymore. But nonetheless they will be there. Because reality is prior to thoughts. Thoughts appear after the fact to describe it. To make sense of it. It can't ofcourse make sense of it as a whole because it's itself part of the whole. However it can make sense of parts from the whole. 

Reality is not a thought construct. Thought constructs are reality. 

Again this isn't rocket science but I don't know why some people just don't get it. 

[Galyna]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

3 hours ago, Galyna said:

 

My main point is this.. Reality is not a thought construct

Are you referring to my words, I don’t think I said this, or you are referring to Nahm?

Edited June 5, 2020 by Galyna

[Someone here]

5 minutes ago, Galyna said:

Are you referring to my words, I don’t think I said this, or you are referring to Nalm?

Yes! 

[Member]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

Reality is not a thought construct. Thought constructs are reality.

Does a tree still exist when there's no eye to see it?

[Nak Khid]

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/275795.php

Medical News Today

What is the link between love and oxytocin?

Oxytocin is a hormone and a neurotransmitter that is involved in childbirth and breast-feeding. It is also associated with empathy, trust, sexual activity, and relationship-building.

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Fast facts on oxytocin

Here are some key points about oxytocin. More detail is in the main article.

Oxytocin is produced in the hypothalamus and released during sex, childbirth, and lactation to aid reproductive functions.

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What is oxytocin?

Oxytocin is a neurotransmitter and a hormone that is produced inTrusted Source the hypothalamus. From there, it is transported to and secreted by the pituitary gland, at the base of the brain.

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The love hormone?

In 2012, researchers reportedTrusted Source that people in the first stages of romantic attachment had higher levels of oxytocin, compared with non-attached single people. These levels persisted for at least 6 months.

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Is it that simple?

In 2006, investigators reportedTrusted Source finding higher levels of oxytocin and cortisol among women who had "gaps in their social relationships" and more negative relations with their primary partner. The participants were all receiving hormone therapy (HT) following menopause.

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Edited June 5, 2020 by Nak Khid

[Galyna]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

Reality is not a thought construct.

So you were upset that reality was NOT a thought construct... how about present moment does not exist? Lol . This forum has made my day!!!!