Are Americans overreacting to Floyd's death?

[Preety_India]

@Dutch guy  actually no. The cop doesn't have a bad record. He has 17 complaints in a span of 2 decades. That's not that bad. He is not a rookie. He is a seasoned cop. And given that, his record doesn't show up as bad as far as police brutality goes. 

He sort of pulled a woman out of the car once for which he was disciplined. 

But other than that there were only minor incidents where someone complained about excessive force. 

Now understand that there are a lot of people who just love to complain for the heck of it and even for minor things like a word or tone of language which wouldn't mean much. So some of these complaints against Chauvin could be just resentful people writing him off. 

But this particular incident is a highlight of his life. Because despite having a 2 decade experience, he still couldn't figure out if he was putting excessive force. That really baffles me. 

Was in a bad and angry mood? Was he resentful towards someone that looked like Floyd and decided to take all his anger on him. Was he simply being impulsive and in the moment became oblivious to what he was doing, these questions are highly complex psychologically and we will never have the answers 

The curious problem here is that this is unlike other police brutality cases where the cops have a past history of violations and serious bad behavior. You can even see them being a bully in the videos. But this guy wasn't the traditional bad cop. 

This creates a complex problem. He is not a bad cop and yet such a situation happens. It goes to show that the job is inherently very complicated in itself and it's not fool proof. It is very deeply flawed and that's why a seemingly seasoned cop can also end up falling prey to bouts of aggression and excessive restraint. 

The job is just designed that way. So one has to really look beyond and see the overall ramifications of Floyd's death. This is a call that the job needs redesigning in such a manner that unlawful and unrighteous deaths of innocent resisting civilians can be prevented. 

In my opinion, blaming the person for resisting arrest is finding a way to blame and being too simplistic to avoid a greater responsibility to find a better solution. A resisting person is innocent after all and resistance in itself is not a crime and hence a person should not have to lose their life for having resisted. Justifying such a thing would be something who is tyrannical and callous would do. Also that person would have to be very simplistic and stupid to simply assert that such a death could have been avoided by not resisting arrest. Resisting arrest is itself a very complex phenomenon, also like telling a person to not sweat when they are anxious 

The real solution here is to reform an arrest process to make it transparent and proper. 

This wasn't a case of a man running away from the cops and a man who is a serial killer or anything like that. This guy Floyd was not a big big criminal who needed to be nabbed and escorted at any cost, plus he wasn't being a threat to the cops given that there were so many cops at that place. 

Those cops did nothing. This was clearly a case of wrong handling and extreme carelessness during an arrest 

The cops should have been trained better. 

 

 

[Artaemis]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's the folks in the middle who will bring Trump down because his vile personality has turned them off.

[Raze]

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Wasn't the case with OJ Simpson.

This will be a hard trial to make fair. Everyone has their opinions already before hearing all the facts.

There was massive pressure to declare OJ innocent.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Raze

[Joel3102]

It seems like the never Biden thing from a lot of progressives is falling apart too. Even Kyle Kulinski who’s a pretty big part of that crew has said he might vote for Biden.

Coronavirus and his response to the riots might really fuck him 

[Consept]

10 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Indeed.

The OJ trial was a disgrace and very problematic case.

Leo is totally right when he says that emotionality and biases are not welcomed when it comes to justice.

The OJ trial was a mess, like OJ said for all intents and purposes hes not black, hes rich so he got access to the justice a rich person would get, with the added outrage a poor black person would get (if they were innocent). This is another problem with the system, in that equal justice is non-existent, rich people get better justice than poor people when in theory justice should be blind. Of course when black people are disproportionately poor compared to whites, mainly due to the last 400 years or so, it is going to equal unfairness for majority of that group of people. OJs lawyers were very clever in making it a racial issue as they knew black people were pissed off about racial issues in society, so very clever and this method has been going on for a while where you mobilise groups of people by pretending its about one thing when really its about your own gain. 

The protests as a whole are not about Floyd theyre about this justified underlying anger and frustration that is ready to boil over at any time and which can also be taken advantage of for ulterior motives 

[Preety_India]

 

I also have a different complicated take on this situation. And that involves the other cops. 

Like I looked up the ages of these other 4 cops. J Alexander Kueng is 26 years old. Tou Thao is 40 years old and Thomas Lane is 37 years old. 

Derek Chauvin is 44 years old. 

Also the other cops Kueng, and Thao are of different ethnicities. 

Now my theory is that maybe there are many factors at play here and it could be that there are many factors at play and maybe it's not just racism or it could be something else 

Like what I notice here is that these officers are younger than Chauvin, all of them are younger than him. 

It seems that only Chauvin has the highest amount of experience as a cop in comparison to the rest of these guys. 

Tou Thao is seen simply looking around and keeping guard. Officers Kueng and Lane were holding down Floyd's body 

Now could it be that somehow all the responsibility of the arrest fell on the shoulders of Chauvin since he was the older one and the more experienced one and these other guys weren't really doing their job right and simply holding or doing nothing so maybe Chauvin felt tremendous pressure to get the job done without getting adequate support from the rest of the cops 

Not getting proper support and being left to do the whole job on his own could have triggered his fight or flight response leading to more anxiety and causing him to keep applying pressure without realizing how bad it was. Maybe he wouldn't have needed to apply so much pressure if the other guys were doing their job honestly and efficiently. 

Their lack of work ethic could mean that all of the responsibility fell on Chauvin making him more aggressive. This is just possibility I'm looking at. 

Also I looked into the background of Chauvin. His life was a complete mess, with a failing marriage and financial woes. He didn't have many friends. He had thousands of dollars in debt. His properties were mortgaged. 

I think this situation of his life could also have caused him tremendous emotional stress and as cops they are trained to not exhibit emotions on the job but that doesn't exempt them from actually experiencing these emotions on the inside. Could the breakdown of his marriage and financial woes have been a triggering factor in him going out of control on duty? 

I wanted to think of possibilities and causes of such an incident other than racism. Is there a way to know if this wasn't exactly racially motivated as a lot of people would like to believe 

Looking at this incident through different perspectives is important because simply blaming everything on racism can blind people from actually noticing other causative factors.

 

[remember]

2 hours ago, electroBeam said:

While blacks are disproportionally brutalised by cops, they also disporportionally commit crimes, and so cops develop stereotypes based on real life experience. 

so far about committing crimes - ofc police would probably most of the time be in contact with minor crimes, major crimes are oftentimes so complex and corrupted and about huge sums of money that police is lacking direct access to the crime cases - so maybe this is another pointer to how frustration mostly plays out at the ground level of criminality. its probably frustrating for police, too.

 

edit: there are no excuses for failing a job like this - understanding what drives one to do sth like that while trying to find an apology is not understanding that you don’t need to understand the motive, it’s an exemplary crime case within police, if he was the oldest in the group he was the most experienced, this only explains why the others probably didn’t hold him back - classical authority and bystander phenomenon.

Edited June 5, 2020 by remember

[Amit]

protestors are dumbass, being on this website, for god's sake don't identify with them, you can do better

[docs20]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The prosecutor is probably under a lot of political pressure. Just because he calls for it doesn't make it right.

I'm no lawyer but Floyd's death looks unintentional to me. Whatever degree that is, is what it is. This should not be difficult for the judge to decide and in the end they're gonna have to prove it beyond reasonable doubt -- which isn't easy to do.

My larger point what that this is not execution or terrorism or lynching. That would be 1st degree murder. And that's not going to fly in any courtroom. Police killing someone unintentionally during arrest is not an execution -- tragic though it is.

I disagree a bit of this one though.

Police job is difficult without any doubt.

But still it's not like you need specific knowledge to know that if you stay all that time on somebody else's neck the person is either going to die or suffer from massive damages.
The policeman was probably expressing all of his suppressed rage from his job mixed with the intrinsic racism present in many white people in the US with a natural tendency he/we have for evil. 

He had all the time in the world to stop harming a man who  was basically on the ground cooperating, it's not like he maybe punched him a couple of times and then caused a death which he didn't intend to create.

When you stay that long on a neck no degree of distraction stops your brain from thinking that he man is going to die, unless your brain is the one of a chair lol

This all is encapsulated with 2nd degree murder which seems to me the right charge for him, and not just to be but to most judges even without the political pressure created,

[docs20]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Hehehe....

Just no. Being indifferent to suffering is not a mental derangement. If it was, then everyone is guilty.

There are degrees to it.

We all are but to some degrees (aka mental illnesses) you barely know if the other person is suggering or you don't care about staying indifferent or in some cases (not too many, thank God) you even get off on the suffering of the other person, which for the killer is better than sex

[Consept]

7 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

It's hard to know what to do with this emotion. For sure, it needs to be expressed, not suppressed, observed, acknowledged and somewhat contained and managed.

I think thats it, theres a deep frustration of not being heard, there are conversations to be had about black treatment around the world and i guess the general feeling of being the marginalised group for so long. I think racism has improved a lot from 50 years ago but the policies and structure was mainly built during these times and at these times Black people were second class, not to mention the advantages white people wouldve had by not having these issues in previous generations and being able to build generational wealth. So even if you want to disagree as some have, that black people havent had a hard time or that that time is in the past, the conversation needs to be had because black people feel this way. 

Im mixed race from the UK and the UK government has never officially apologised for windrush and slavery (windrush is still an issue today). Now imagine something that was so jarring to people but theyve not been addressed regarding it, that shit is frustrating, so if then someone gets killed whos black and the perpetrator is white, the incident might not even be racist but how it looks reminds black people of all the frustration and pain that has been experienced and blows up like that, so it might seem disproportionate to those looking on. But i relate to a lot of what you said. 

29 minutes ago, remember said:

so far about committing crimes - ofc police would probably most of the time be in contact with minor crimes, major crimes are oftentimes so complex and corrupted and about huge sums of money that police is lacking direct access to the crime cases - so maybe this is another pointer to how frustration mostly plays out at the ground level of criminality. its probably frustrating for police, too.

This is another interesting point, white collar crime costs $400 billion a year in the US and is mainly carried out by college educated white males, there could be an argument made that it has a more detrimental impact on society and im pretty sure those involved in these high level crimes have a hand drug empires as well which leads to the low level street violence we see. But you rarely hear about it, im not saying its necessarily racist as its probably just not exciting for the tv audience to watch an accountant fiddling the books, but its another example of how the system is setup which is not favourable for poor people. Im sure a lot of these crimes get off is well due to having more money for better lawyers etc  

[Preety_India]

 

Just now, Dutch guy said:

As long as people like you see racism everywhere and that it's all unfair the wound will be kept alive. In the meantime while everybody is being put against each other based on skincolor, the richest people cash in the money. They got a lot richer now in these covid times. As long as your busy with this they can cash in.

I get your point. But one more thing. The media also profits by making a Black person Versus White person thing. Their material gets more views and sensationalism sells. Sometimes its propaganda and agenda driven. 

This can be deadly because it can turn into a race war by provoking both sides to anger 

Let's not forget that there are lots of black people who are high achievers and stereotypes do not always apply and there are lots of white people who aren't racist. 

This black and white thinking can be a killer. 

Some third party can definitely profit from this. And I can clearly see that third party. 

It exists throughout the judicial system especially those who are at the top of this system. 

 

 

[docs20]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That holds up as long as the guy is not resisting arrest.

If you resist arrest you should expect a knee on your neck. Not to the point of killing you, but cops definitely have a right to manhandle you if you are wrestling with them and trying to get away.

If cops around the country do 5,000 choke holds per year on average, a few of those will be leathal. You can't expect every cop to do it right every time.

I agree but still, Leo, 8 minutes on a guys neck it's totally way out of hand, you might as well incapacite him by shooting on his knees if it could be allowed, you'd cause him less damages.

Like there were tons of other ways to incapacite him, also after 8 minutes and the guy saying "I can't breathe" and so on it's not like you can't stop choke him.

I agree with being empathetic with the cop and of course agree to hear his side and to a fair trial. OF COURSE, like there is no doubt about that. But there is also not much doubt by watching the video and reading about the autopsy that he was too cruel and excessive and that 2nd degree murder seems like the fair charge.

[Amit]

Stop commenting, discussion is already saturated, no point repeating the same thing again and again

[Consept]

11 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 

I get your point. But one more thing. The media also profits by making a Black person Versus White person thing. Their material gets more views and sensationalism sells. Sometimes its propaganda and agenda driven. 

This can be deadly because it can turn into a race war by provoking both sides to anger 

Let's not forget that there are lots of black people who are high achievers and stereotypes do not always apply and there are lots of white people who aren't racist. 

This black and white thinking can be a killer. 

Some third party can definitely profit from this. And I can clearly see that third party. 

It exists throughout the judicial system especially those who are at the top of this system. 

 

 

Heres is the issue, white schools in the US receive 23 Billion more funding than black schools. Even poor white schools receive more than poor black schools, there are reasons for this which is that the property tax is taken per area and used to fund the schools, so obviously poor areas will have less money to fund schools. This kind of thing is baked into the system and gives a very clear disadvantage to black people, so when you say black people are high achievers thats in spite of the disadvantages, why people are frustrated is because these disadvantages shouldnt exists and of course poverty leads to crime which leads to continual, generational cycles which then leads to people thinking black people are just bad and why cant they lift themselves out, well its easy to say that when youve had adequately funded education. 

The day to day racism is annoying but these gaping systemic issues are the root of why people are annoyed even if they dont vocalise it 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Consept

[remember]

10 minutes ago, Amit said:

Stop commenting, discussion is already saturated, no point repeating the same thing again and again

stop reading without contributing if it annoys you read a book.

[Amit]

@remember not me, seems like you're annoyed in here... also don't quote me just read the next comment.

 also, that sentence is my huge contribution, but you will realize only after you die.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Amit
Clarify

[rlc]

@Leo Gura don’t take this the wrong way, but I feel as an introvert you might not see enough that goes on. Is that possible? Most of the republicans don’t make it to the internet and the media. I’m in a republican part of New York and there has to be so many places that are like this, they’re fed up and it’s way more dems that use the internet and media it feels like. 

[Preety_India]

25 minutes ago, Consept said:

Heres is the issue, white schools in the US receive 23 Billion more funding than black schools. Even poor white schools receive more than poor black schools, there are reasons for this which is that the property tax is taken per area and used to fund the schools, so obviously poor areas will have less money to fund schools. This kind of thing is baked into the system and gives a very clear disadvantage to black people, so when you say black people are high achievers thats in spite of the disadvantages, why people are frustrated is because these disadvantages shouldnt exists and of course poverty leads to crime which leads to continual, generational cycles which then leads to people thinking black people are just bad and why cant they lift themselves out, well its easy to say that when youve had adequately funded education. 

The day to day racism is annoying but these gaping systemic issues are the root of why people are annoyed even if they dont vocalise it 

Edited 14 minutes ago by Consept

This is exactly true. I find it so hard to believe that people still don't realize the potential of black people. It's sad all around. 

Black people have historically lacked opportunities that were always available to all other races as a norm 

Yet people are so casual in their dismissal of black people completely disregarding the effects of a historical context. 

Also black people weren't liberated in 12th century. They have received due recognition and liberation only recently. So obviously it will take time for black people to have a tremendous transformation and given the state of things in America, this transformation is further slowed down by stupid rules that marginalize poor people 

I see a lot of rich black people doing tremendously great in fields of science, art, literature, sports, music and even generally. They live long, they tend to live healthier and have better relationships. For example look at Barack Obama or look at Beyonce. Obama is not only accomplished but is a great dad and husband. Living healthy and doing great. Because these black people got opportunities that several million black people did not get 

Just imagine if every black person is given the financial opportunity to do better, they can achieve so much more than the world thinks. 

That's also a huge frustration for black people, being constantly pigeonholed and blamed for their poverty. 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Preety_India

[remember]

46 minutes ago, Amit said:

@remember not me, seems like you're annoyed in here... also don't quote me just read the next comment.

 also, that sentence is my huge contribution, but you will realize only after you die.

how so? will you die with me? i‘m not sure how to answer to that... it seems a little bit aggressive, there are probably other possibilities to release aggression. i mean maybe this is your huge contribution or maybe this is mine - do you want to talk about your aggressions? we can open another thread and find a solution. why does this thread trigger you to tell people to stop commenting? 

what are your thoughts about this case by the way? maybe you wanted to be asked about your opinion? not that you could not without, but maybe because everyone has an opinion without being asked, you want to be asked for yours.

Edited June 5, 2020 by remember