Are Americans overreacting to Floyd's death?

[remember]

if he has been trained in that like they train people in martial arts he knew exactly what he was doing.

[Leo Gura]

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You're right, I did not see the paramedic part. Not sure how to explain that.

Well, you have to wonder, if this was an intentional murder, why was there a paramedic at all? Why did they call the paramedic?

Murders don't usually call paramedics for their victims while engaged in murder.

It would be interesting to hear that officer's POV and what was going through his mind during those 8 minutes. What will he say was his intention? What will be his defense? It's hard to judge the case without hearing his POV.

[Forestluv]

19 minutes ago, SerpaeTetra said:

Did you miss the part where the paramedic checked his pulse and the charged officer kept his knee on his neck for almost 3 minutes AFTER he had no pulse?  I mean, honestly, I didn't watch the video the whole way through the first time so maybe that's the reason for your view.

I just watched the second half. The me, it looks like the cop knew he was dead and kept his knee and full body weight on him for several minutes. That elevates the severity in my book. That is a level worse than a cop doing his job and using excessive force. 

It might not be a feature of a law, yet it is a sign of derangement. 

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

That cop knew he was dead

That is not clear. He could of thought he was unconscious.

My point is, just be mindful of the assumptions you guys make. The assumptions you're making are not directly evident in an objective viewing of the video. They are YOUR projections. The raw facts in the video can be interpreted in different ways. Which is exactly why an objective trial is necessary where all the possibilities are aired out and considered.

Remember that facts can be easily recontextualized by other facts.

[Rilles]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That is not clear. He could of thought he was unconscious.

My point is, just be mindful of the assumptions you guys make. The assumptions you're making are not directly evident in an objective viewing of the video. They are YOUR projections. The raw facts in the video can a interpreted in different ways. Which is exactly why an objective trial is necessary.

Then the police force need to learn how to not be reckless. No wonder Black people are so scared of police when they do these things and call them "Oopsies".

Edited June 5, 2020 by Rilles

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That is not clear. He could of thought he was unconscious.

After a paramedic took his pulse and told the cop he had no pulse? C’mon.  

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Then the police force need to learn how to not be reckless. No wonder Black people are so scared of police when they do these things and call them "Oopsies".

Absolutely! That is the crux of the matter.

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

After a paramedic took his pulse and told the cop he had no pulse? C’mon.  

I don't hear those words spoken in the video.

[remember]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, you have to wonder, if this was an intentional murder, why was there a paramedic at all? Why did they call the paramedic?

Murders don't usually call paramedics for their victims.

It would be interesting to hear that officer's POV and what was going through his mind during those 8 minutes. What will he say was his intention? What will be his defense? It's hard to judge the case without hearing his POV.

maybe he posed for guiness book world records.

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

That is not clear. He could of thought he was unconscious.

My point is, just be mindful of the assumptions you guys make. The assumptions you're making are not directly evident in an objective viewing of the video. They are YOUR projections. The raw facts in the video can a interpreted in different ways. Which is exactly why an objective trial is necessary where all the possibilities can aired out and considered.

I think your moral relativism can't fly in any society that respects itself . We don't have to be 100% certain that he murderd him intentionally.  In fact.. Given the videos and the evidence we have it's not possible to do that. But anyone can easily see the cop could've easily avoided all that because Floyd was not resisting anyways. There is audios you can hear floyd saying " I can't breath. please just let me breath". And yet the motherfucker kept his knee on his neck until he died. You think you can suffocate someone s without paying attention of when he dies??  That's a cool story but even if it's true that's even worse because if you can kill people unintentionally like that with such stupidity you are not qualified to be a cop in the first place. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Someone here

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I think your moral realtivism can't fly in any society that respects itself .

Quite the contrary, my neutrality and objectivity is the very foundation of justice and the legal system.

I am calling for an objective and fair trail and also police reform. This is not moral relativism.

I cannot condemn a man without first hearing his side of the story. What's troublesome is justice by mob mentality and emotional outrage.

I will await the officers' version of the story. If it sucks, well, that will be obvious and then I want to see a fair sentence.

[SerpaeTetra]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, you have to wonder, if this was an intentional murder, why was there a paramedic at all? Why did they call the paramedic?

Murders don't usually call paramedics for their victims while engaged in murder.

It would be interesting to hear that officer's POV and what was going through his mind during those 8 minutes. What will he say was his intention? What will be his defense? It's hard to judge the case without hearing his POV.

Thats why I was sooooo surprised to hear you say ----

Leo -3rd degree murder seems like the proper charge here.

People who are calling for a higher charge are not being objective, 

You have a tendency to call out others for jumping to conclusions, but do the same thing the very next second...not many have ability to learn in the sense of    "do what I say-not as I do"

 

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, SerpaeTetra said:

Thats why I was sooooo surprised to hear you say ----

Leo -3rd degree murder seems like the proper charge here.

People who are calling for a higher charge are not being objective, 

You have a tendency to call out others for jumping to conclusions, but do the same thing the very next second...not many have ability to learn in the sense of    "do what I say-not as I do"

I said *SEEMS*

Obviously I am not conducting a full trial here. We're just speculating.

[Lyubov]

That knee on his neck cut off blood flow and is actually an incredibly dangerous thing to do to another person. It's basically a lethal submission move to put someone in a choke hold in martial arts. I can't even imagine the full force of someone's weight... I have no clue where that cop learned to do that. I wonder if they were even trained to do that. I think they mostly just don't give a fuck and value black lives less. 

[Forestluv]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't hear those words spoken in the video.

If he thought floyd might just be unconscious, that would shift the dynamic toward intentional murder. They had him handcuffed with three cops on him, he is motionless for several minutes and the cop thinks he is unconscious and continues to put his weight into his neck. That seems like intention to induce more harm than unconscious, since he was already unconscious. 

 I doubt he was intending to maintain a state of unconsciousness. Yet I’m also not saying he was intentionally trying to murder. He seems indifferent to me and his indifference might be considered a mental derangement. 

[Consept]

I'm always wary of trial by media and making judgements, more could be yet to come out. Its also hard to assess his intention but it does really seem like he was trying to cause harm and assert complete dominance over Floyd. Because he uses the knee it seems like some kind of official police hold but if you changed it slightly to him using his hands, say strangling or using a choke hold which essentially has the same effect as what he was doing, then it takes on a different context. Imagine a police officer having a suspect in a choke hold or strangling them for close to 9 mins while the suspect is telling them they can't breathe and then eventually dying because of this. 

From that perspective you'd say its definitely murder. So I get what Leo is saying, we haven't got all the facts and it's hard to prove intention but it really looks like he was trying to cause harm here. There were 4 of them they could've very easily restrained him without choking him 

[SerpaeTetra]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I said *SEEMS*

Obviously I am not conducting a full trial here. We're just speculating.

Ok, my bad, gotcha.

You also said -People who are calling for a higher charge are not being objective, (you meant people calling for higher than a 3rd degree charge)

That doesn't seem speculation to me, just stating facts.  

 

I think in the future I should just assume that your statements are just speculation, maybe I'm reading too much into the conversation.  I'm terrible with forum communication.

[remember]

i don’t see how him being a police officer would be in any case a mitigating circumstance, its the opposite. this is not a killing in the affect, affect is a short term body reaction.

take into account a person acting as a states representative.

Edited June 5, 2020 by remember

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

and his indifference might be considered a mental derangement.

Hehehe....

Just no. Being indifferent to suffering is not a mental derangement. If it was, then everyone is guilty.

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, remember said:

i don’t see how him being a police officer would be in any case a mitigating circumstance, its the opposite. this is not a killing in the affect, affect is a short term body reaction.

That's because you've never experienced or contemplated the realities of being a cop. You think of it as some easy job when it is not.

Cops deal with assholes and criminals every day for years. This makes it very easy to get jaded. They have to stop caring because otherwise they couldn't keep doing their jobs. You can't be a bleeding heart hippie with every asshole who spits in your face and trying to stab you.

Quote

take into account a person acting as a states representative.

Exactly. You are not doing that.

I want all of you here to imagine just for one minute how you would arrest a drunk person who spits in your face and resists arrest. How would you handle such a person?

[Forestluv]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Hehehe....

Just no. Being indifferent to suffering is not a mental derangement. If it was, then everyone is guilty.

I consider there to be different degrees of indifference. It’s one thing to be indifferent about starving children in Africa. It’s another thing to be indifferent while actively torturing someone. They are not the same psychological dynamic.