Are Americans overreacting to Floyd's death?

[Forestluv]

Seems like 3rd degree to me. If the prosecutor goes for 2nd degree and comes up short, can there still be a3rd degree conviction? Or is the guy off the hook?

Second-degree murder: According to the Minnesota statute, whoever causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting” is guilty of murder in the second degree.

Third-degree murder: According to the Minnesota statute, whoever causes the death of a person “by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree.”

 

[Arcangelo]

Are Americans overreacting to Floyd's death?

No.

[SerpaeTetra]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Seems like 3rd degree to me. If the prosecutor goes for 2nd degree and comes up short, can there still be a3rd degree conviction? Or is the guy off the hook?

Second-degree murder: According to the Minnesota statute, whoever causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting” is guilty of murder in the second degree.

Third-degree murder: According to the Minnesota statute, whoever causes the death of a person “by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree.”

 

I mean, maybe, I don't have a law degree and don't have the experience of the prosecutor.  I did read from https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/charges-against-officer-suggest-george-floyd-s-death-unintended-n1224731

The distinction between third-degree "depraved mind" murder and second-degree manslaughter is that manslaughter is an unintentional killing that results from a reckless act, one that disregards a risk of harm.

Also - it says his predicate felony would be "third-degree assault".

 

 

[Forestluv]

I notice Minnesota has 2nd degree manslaughter as well as 2nd degree murder. I heard they are going fir 2nd degree murder. 

I’m not well-versed in law. I’m just speculating about which one fits best.

[Leo Gura]

39 minutes ago, SerpaeTetra said:

The prosecutor called for a 2nd degree charge.

The prosecutor is probably under a lot of political pressure. Just because he calls for it doesn't make it right.

I'm no lawyer but Floyd's death looks unintentional to me. Whatever degree that is, is what it is. This should not be difficult for the judge to decide and in the end they're gonna have to prove it beyond reasonable doubt -- which isn't easy to do.

My larger point what that this is not execution or terrorism or lynching. That would be 1st degree murder. And that's not going to fly in any courtroom. Police killing someone unintentionally during arrest is not an execution -- tragic though it is.

[SerpaeTetra]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The prosecutor is probably under a lot of political pressure. Just because he calls for it doesn't make it right.

I'm no lawyer but Floyd's death looks unintentional to me. Whatever degree that is, is what it is. This should not be difficult for the judge to decide.

I agree, in the same way a bank robber doesn't intend to kill a bank teller.

[Forestluv]

26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm no lawyer but Floyd's death looks unintentional to me.

To me, it looks in-between intended and unintended. It looks like he didn’t care if he lived or died. 

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, SerpaeTetra said:

I agree, in the same way a bank robber doesn't intend to kill a bank teller.

No. A bank robber is committing a crime. A police officer arresting a suspect is doing his job -- although he can do it recklessly.

Have you ever thought about how difficult it is to arrest assholes all day long for years on end? Some of those people are on drugs, psychopaths, have mental issues, carry disease, will bite you, will try to kick you in the nuts, will have a hidden knife or a gun, etc.

When a cop is arresting someone he can't assume the person is some sweetheart. Cops have to make dozens of arrests on a weekly basis. Try peacefully arresting a belligerent drunk person.

8 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

To me, it looks in-between intended or unintended. It looks like he didn’t care if he lived or died. 

I think he just under-estimated how quickly Floyd could die from that choke hold. 8 minutes seems like a long time but then again, 8 minutes can pass very quickly while your mind is distracted by other things. Maybe another person wouldn't have died under that same choke hold because they had better breathing. It can be difficult to gauge how much pressure to apply to which person.

[electroBeam]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

No. A bank robber is committing a crime. A police officer arresting a suspect is doing his job -- although he can do it recklessly.

A bank robber is commiting a crime, but that doesn't mean the bank robber intends to kill someone.

Just because you're intentionally committing a crime, doesn't mean unintended consequences(like murder) should be viewed more harshly. Then unintended consequences from not committing a crime.

[SerpaeTetra]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No. A bank robber is committing a crime. A police officer arresting a suspect is doing his job -- although he can do it recklessly.

Have you ever thought about how difficult it is to arrest assholes all day long for years on end? Some of those people are on drugs, psychopaths, have mental issues, carry disease, will bite you, will try to kick you in the nuts, will have a hidden knife or a gun, etc.

When a cop is arresting someone he can't assume the person is just some sweetheart.

I think he just under-estimated how quickly Floyd could die from that choke hold. 8 minutes seems like a long time but then again, 8 minutes can pass very quickly while your mind is distracted by other things.

Did you miss the part where the paramedic checked his pulse and the charged officer kept his knee on his neck for almost 3 minutes AFTER he had no pulse?  I mean, honestly, I didn't watch the video the whole way through the first time so maybe that's the reason for your view.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

Just because you're intentionally committing a crime, doesn't mean unintended consequences(like murder) should be viewed more harshly. Then unintended consequences from not committing a crime.

Actually, that's exactly what it means. If you are robbing a bank with a loaded gun everyone knows there is high probability of shots fired and people dying.

Intention is not merely about wanting to kill a person. Intention is a broader notion.

You can't just rob a bank, shoot the teller, and then tell the judge, "But I didn't intent to kill her." That won't fly.

[Rilles]

@Leo GuraLeo... youre being a bit too loving... the dude clearly had time to not kill the dude... he had several chances to save him... 8 minutes!

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, SerpaeTetra said:

Did you miss the part where the paramedic checked his pulse and the charged officer kept his knee on his neck for almost 3 minutes AFTER he had no pulse?  I mean, honestly, I didn't watch the video the whole way through the first time so maybe that's the reason for your view.

You're right, I did not see the paramedic part. Not sure how to explain that.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Rilles said:

the dude clearly had time to not kill the dude... he had several chances to save him... 8 minutes!

Obviously he could have not killed him if he was concerned about his well-being.

I am saying he was not concerned about his well-being.

[SerpaeTetra]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

You're right, I did not see the paramedic part. Not sure how to explain that.

Have to put that in my signature, almost like Trump admitted he was wrong for first time , j/k

[Lyubov]

I don't think the cop "intentionally" killed him (IE kept his knee on his neck with the intent of ending his life purposefully) but it was such an incredibly careless, dangerous and callous was of handling oneself as well as motivated by racial discrimination. I'm not sure of the laws in this state and what best fits his actions but I think the highest degree of manslaughter as well as hate crime charges should be what they are charged with. I haven't seen the video though. I think murder could be a reasonable charge as well. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Lyubov

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, SerpaeTetra said:

I agree, in the same way a bank robber doesn't intend to kill a bank teller.

Intention gets tricky for me. The bank robber originally intended to steal the money and get away with it. Shooting a teller would put him in a worse position if he got caught, 

So during the robbery, things don’t go as planned and he needs to shoot the teller to get away with it. . . . How much time and calculation is needed to qualify as “intentional”. Lets say a teller tried to ambush the robber, the robber freaks out and shoots her. We could say this was reflexive or instinctual. Not intentional. . . Yet what if the teller looked over at the alarm switch and for three seconds, the robber surveyed his options and decided to shoot her. Is this sufficient to be “intentional”.

When I think of unintentional, I think of something like a couple having an argument. He pushes her, she trips and falls over a balcony and dies. The guy killed her, yet didn’t intend to push her off the balcony. He actually is horrified she fell and died. 

That’s not what the cop looks like to me. Afterwards, he wasn’t like “oh shit! The guy died. Fuck.”. It looked more like he didn’t care. 

[Lyubov]

1 minute ago, Serotoninluv said:

That’s not what the cop looks like to me. Afterwards, he wasn’t like “oh shit! The guy died. Fuck.”. It looked more like he didn’t care. 

I haven't seen the video but if this is the case def bring murder charges 

[Rilles]

1 minute ago, Lyubov said:

I haven't seen the video but if this is the case def bring murder charges 

 

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

So during the robbery, things don’t go as planned and he needs to shoot the teller to get away with it. . . . How much time and calculation is needed to qualify as “intentional”. Lets say a teller tried to ambush the robber, the robber freaks out and shoots her. We could say this was reflexive or instinctual. Not intentional. . . Yet what if the teller looked over at the alarm switch and for three seconds, the robber surveyed his options and decided to shoot her. Is this sufficient to be “intentional”.

My bet is, if you accidentally shoot the bank teller in a robbery, that will count as an intentional killing even if you tell the judge that you didn't want to shoot her. Intention does not have to explicit. It was part of your intention to rob the bank.