Are Americans overreacting to Floyd's death?

[TheAlchemist]

The issue is not police brutality, that is just a very surface level symptom of many deep and systemic issues. The black population has gotten left behind in education, work and they are stuck in poverty. Poverty keeps communities stuck in a cycle of crime and the struggle has many people in these communities resort to drugs as a coping mechanism. Drug addiction and the war against drugs plays a key role, because these people get arrested for nonviolent drug offenses and are sent to jails and prisons, which basically force you to become a violent criminal by having to join a gang etc. Rates of violent crime are significantly higher in blacks and that can cause a bias when police are interacting with them. The police are also concerned with their own survival as much as anyone else and they are subject to unconscious stereotyping, (although deliberate racism definitely seems to exist within the police). This is just one example of the probably dozens of systemic issues in the U.S that this is just a symptom of. 

Some possible systemic issues that this is a symptom of:

• A prison system that doesn't aim to rehabilitate and profits from keeping people in.
• War on drugs which gets people into cycle of crime
• Lack of oversight on police forces, minimal training of police
• Large amounts of guns in the general population, which causes police to have a highly sensitive trigger finger
• Lack of public preschool which would even out the playing field for education.

It is not helpful in any way or for anyone to say that the ONLY cause of this problem is systemic racism or police brutality. We need to accurately diagnose the issue if we want to solve it. Outrage can actually make things worse by focusing on the wrong problem, although the emotional reaction people are having is totally understandable..

[Dan502]

@Eren Eeager I'm really glad that you asked this question.

I'm really glad that this discussion is taking place and I think it is a great credit to Leo and his community that we can come here and have this discussion try to understand what is going on.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Dan502

[DivineSoda]

Yes and no. 

Yes in the sense that we are being egg'd on to over react.. on purpose.

No in the sense that we have an absolutely psychotic law enforcement, military, and government if you look at our history. Enough is enough. We should've been in the streets decades ago and never stopped until we reached a resolution.

[Consept]

3 hours ago, TheAlchemist said:

The issue is not police brutality, that is just a very surface level symptom of many deep and systemic issues. The black population has gotten left behind in education, work and they are stuck in poverty. Poverty keeps communities stuck in a cycle of crime and the struggle has many people in these communities resort to drugs as a coping mechanism. Drug addiction and the war against drugs plays a key role, because these people get arrested for nonviolent drug offenses and are sent to jails and prisons, which basically force you to become a violent criminal by having to join a gang etc. Rates of violent crime are significantly higher in blacks and that can cause a bias when police are interacting with them. The police are also concerned with their own survival as much as anyone else and they are subject to unconscious stereotyping, (although deliberate racism definitely seems to exist within the police). This is just one example of the probably dozens of systemic issues in the U.S that this is just a symptom of. 

Some possible systemic issues that this is a symptom of:

• A prison system that doesn't aim to rehabilitate and profits from keeping people in.
• War on drugs which gets people into cycle of crime
• Lack of oversight on police forces, minimal training of police
• Large amounts of guns in the general population, which causes police to have a highly sensitive trigger finger
• Lack of public preschool which would even out the playing field for education.

It is not helpful in any way or for anyone to say that the ONLY cause of this problem is systemic racism or police brutality. We need to accurately diagnose the issue if we want to solve it. Outrage can actually make things worse by focusing on the wrong problem, although the emotional reaction people are having is totally understandable..

Good breakdown. Education i think is a massive thing, if theres equality there then we will start to see a big difference in poverty levels, it will take a long time, none of this is a quick fix. With a single incident, in a way its easy because we can get the officers involved arrested but it will only appease and will not change the root and so this type of thing will continue to happen

[freeman194673]

3 hours ago, TheAlchemist said:

The issue is not police brutality, that is just a very surface level symptom of many deep and systemic issues. The black population has gotten left behind in education, work and they are stuck in poverty. Poverty keeps communities stuck in a cycle of crime and the struggle has many people in these communities resort to drugs as a coping mechanism. Drug addiction and the war against drugs plays a key role, because these people get arrested for nonviolent drug offenses and are sent to jails and prisons, which basically force you to become a violent criminal by having to join a gang etc. Rates of violent crime are significantly higher in blacks and that can cause a bias when police are interacting with them. The police are also concerned with their own survival as much as anyone else and they are subject to unconscious stereotyping, (although deliberate racism definitely seems to exist within the police). This is just one example of the probably dozens of systemic issues in the U.S that this is just a symptom of. 

Some possible systemic issues that this is a symptom of:

• A prison system that doesn't aim to rehabilitate and profits from keeping people in.
• War on drugs which gets people into cycle of crime
• Lack of oversight on police forces, minimal training of police
• Large amounts of guns in the general population, which causes police to have a highly sensitive trigger finger
• Lack of public preschool which would even out the playing field for education.

It is not helpful in any way or for anyone to say that the ONLY cause of this problem is systemic racism or police brutality. We need to accurately diagnose the issue if we want to solve it. Outrage can actually make things worse by focusing on the wrong problem, although the emotional reaction people are having is totally understandable..

This is a very good explanation thank you!

You're absolutely right,the problem is very complex and multidimensional.

[giglio]

This article shows this tactic is common practice in that department:

 https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/minneapolis-police-rendered-44-people-unconscious-with-neck-restraints-since-2015/89-fc7e0592-317b-4da2-9e70-ded28b1caa94#:~:text=Minneapolis Police policy allows the,to the trachea or airway.”

As far as shooting with body cams off and such. If something happens in an instant where they have to react without warning, many times they dont have time to turn on a body cam. If you  are getting shot at or assaulted or are being resisted, the last thing you are going to be thinking of is taking time out to turn on a body cam. Oh, wait, hold on, stop fighting me for a minute so I can turn on my body cam.....

[Alyosha]

1 hour ago, giglio said:

This article shows this tactic is common practice in that department:

 https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/minneapolis-police-rendered-44-people-unconscious-with-neck-restraints-since-2015/89-fc7e0592-317b-4da2-9e70-ded28b1caa94#:~:text=Minneapolis Police policy allows the,to the trachea or airway.”

As far as shooting with body cams off and such. If something happens in an instant where they have to react without warning, many times they dont have time to turn on a body cam. If you  are getting shot at or assaulted or are being resisted, the last thing you are going to be thinking of is taking time out to turn on a body cam. Oh, wait, hold on, stop fighting me for a minute so I can turn on my body cam.....

yall be careful about what you say on here. this dude is clearly a cop 

[giglio]

@TheAlchemist Great Assessment. I agree completely. 

[remember]

2 hours ago, giglio said:

This article shows this tactic is common practice in that department:

 https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/minneapolis-police-rendered-44-people-unconscious-with-neck-restraints-since-2015/89-fc7e0592-317b-4da2-9e70-ded28b1caa94#:~:text=Minneapolis Police policy allows the,to the trachea or airway.”

As far as shooting with body cams off and such. If something happens in an instant where they have to react without warning, many times they dont have time to turn on a body cam. If you  are getting shot at or assaulted or are being resisted, the last thing you are going to be thinking of is taking time out to turn on a body cam. Oh, wait, hold on, stop fighting me for a minute so I can turn on my body cam.....

as far as being outside during a riot i doubt its standard to have the cams switched off... if you are a cop i hope your way of defending criminality in the police of your country is watched by some kind of higher instance because you would probably stand at the side, doing nothing. because if someone is getting that defensive and apologetic about sth so obviously power abuse i guess it’s not just professional pride defending that. professional pride was apologetic towards the victims not the perpetrators.

maybe police needs a pilot who asks them everytime if they have switched their cams on? or is a policeman brains enough to fly the plane of law and order alone?

Edited June 4, 2020 by remember

[giglio]

I'm just laying out the facts as we know so far. I'm not a cop.  I am just waiting on the court to make a judgement based on the totality of the circumstances, not a video. A video is limited. It doesnt tell the whole story. The court will look at all evidence including the details of each person involved, training, policy, etc. You are assuming it was a criminal act when that has yet to be proven. Intent matters and we dont know that yet. People get sucked into the media narrative not knowing everything. There is a knee jerk reaction right now. We have to look at the situation holistically.  The vast majority of these cases get cleared as justified or reduced by a jury based on the evidence that comes out during a trial even after everyone in the media was so sure of their guilt based on limited information. 

[remember]

@giglio if people like you sit in a jury i don’t know what anyone would need evidence for.

[Alyosha]

Fuck 12. Fuck the feds. Fuck the growing police state. 

[Alyosha]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nof5tK6Mtqw

[giglio]

@remember Juries thoroughly vetted before a trial. The prosecution and the defendant both get say on who sits on a jury. If one objects, the potential juror gets booted. Both sides have to agree who sits on a jury before it starts. 

[AtheisticNonduality]

@Eren Eeager The system is not working at all.

[AtheisticNonduality]

@giglio The vast majority of these cases get cleared because of corruption and authoritarianism.  The answer is simple: it was murder.  A gang of terrorists publicly executed a man for no reason.  End of story.

[DoubleYou]

Questions like these are the exact reason people are and should be protesting. A lot of people still have no idea whatsoever about the reality some groups are dealing with. This is not about a single incident. It never was.

Maybe the best thing about all of this, which at the same time is a terrible thing, are all the videos that are surfacing on social media right now. Some of that shit is as sickening as it gets, and it makes you grasp how big of a problem this actually is. Especially considering most of it is never captured on camera at all.

Awareness is always the catalyst for change, and right now in the US, but also across the globe, people are starting to really see what's happening and has been happening all along. So no, this isn't an overreaction. If anything, this has been long overdue. And it's probably going to get a lot worse before it gets better. But it's always been like that, only now it's visible at surface level. It's quite exciting, really. 

[giglio]

@AtheisticNonduality I'd rather let 12 vetted people on a jury decide instead of you just using your random judgement. 

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

The answer is simple: it was murder.  A gang of terrorists publicly executed a man for no reason.  End of story.

Actually that's your projection and judgment.

It was not an execution, it was an example of excessive force and carelessness. These are very different things.

Terrorists are people who terrorize others for a political agenda. The police in Floyd's case are not terrorists unless we find out they are part of the KKK or some ideology like that.

They were just police doing business as usual in that part of town, dealing with a suspicious guy who was not fully cooperating with them. And they used excessive force.

I highly doubt their intention was to kill Floyd. If that was their intention they wouldn't have done it out in public like that.

3rd degree murder seems like the proper charge here.

People who are calling for a higher charge are not being objective, they are seeking to exact revenge and a political agenda.

You don't see a reason because you don't want to see one.

The real political issue here is changing "business as usual", which is an issue of police training and culture.

[SerpaeTetra]

45 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Actually that's your projection and judgment.

It was not an execution, it was an example of excessive force and carelessness. These are very different things.

Terrorists are people who terrorize others for a political agenda. The police in Floyd's case are not terrorists unless we find out they are part of the KKK or some ideology like that.

They were just police doing business as usual in that part of town, dealing with a suspicious guy who was not fully cooperating with them. And they used excessive force.

I highly doubt their intention was to kill Floyd. If that was their intention they wouldn't have done it out in public like that.

3rd degree murder seems like the proper charge here.

People who are calling for a higher charge are not being objective, they are seeking to exact revenge and a political agenda.

You don't see a reason because you don't want to see one.

The real political issue here is changing "business as usual", which is an issue of police training and culture.

Your confidence always amazes me. 

You go from, 3rd degree murder "seems like" the proper charge(you aren't even sure of your own quick response)...to: People who are calling for a higher charge are not being objective.  The prosecutor called for a 2nd degree charge.