Could an enlightened person stay chill on Datura?

[4201]

DISCLAIMER: Datura is trash, honestly you don't want to take that. Neurotoxic, can overdose easily (which is death), people on datura do VERY dangerous shit with absolutely no consciousness (they can cut themselves, enter random people's house, etc.) and it can last more than 3 days. Many people have suffered permanent damage to their psychology taking this substance (one was reportedly still fucked up after 5 years). YOU SHOULD NOT TAKE DATURA.

But this question has been swimming in my head for a while now. I'd be SO fascinated to see a zen master/monk try datura and see if they can overcome it. If you don't know about Datura, checkout trip reports they are mindblowing. It's basically making you see real external hallucinations you can touch and it makes you forget you took the drug so you don't even know you are tripping. 99% of people on this drug are having bad, bad, terrible trips. They hallucinate people bleeding, their entire environment becomes a (litteral in many case) burning hell and they see demons. (Some people speculate the icons of satan would have come from people taking Datura).

It's not just what they see but mostly what they feel. People on datura (from trip reports) experience endless confusion and struggle, something a so-called enlightened person should be free off. Perhaps if the mind is able to let go of identifying the physical hell that is hallucinated then that hell can disappear and create something else?

But I'm so curious. Datura seems like the ultimate test for an enlightened person. It has to be kept in mind that most of the trip reports are indeed horrific but they come from not very responsible recreative users. So there's a lot of space for wonder. Sure, the enlightened person would gain absolutely nothing from this, but there exists curiosity in me about this.

Don't quote me on this but, maybe I'll do it if I ever am enlightened (like in 60 years). There's definitely a huge need for setting in this and not just a trip sitter but an entire medical team with antidote. I'd probably want to be chained to a brick wall if I were to do it. Some guy did it profesionnally (although with DPH) to have sex with one of those shadow entity: https://www.reddit.com/r/drugscirclejerk/comments/apu6l2/sex_with_a_shadow_entity_experience_report/ He used Datura because it is known to make the external hallucinations very real. At least this report indicates that there's a way for a non enlightened person to at least control some of the effects. So what about an enlightened person?

But hey that probably will never happen, and I'll just be left to wonder what would happen...

Edited May 27, 2020 by 4201

[James123]

@4201 there is no self. How can you overcome from something, if you are exist as nothing (selfless) and as everything? Something can happen to body, but not to them. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by James123

[Seraphim]

@James123 The human can overcome things.

Maybe one of those highly advanced yogis who are not even affected by pain, could stay chill on datura Because if pain can't hurt you, then nothing would be scary.

[4201]

9 minutes ago, James123 said:

@4201 there is no self. How can you overcome from something, if you are exist as nothing (selfless) and as everything? Something can happen to body, but not to them. 

In the environment becoming under the influence of Datura hellish there's an implicit bias of self that considers their environment bad or displeasing. Sure, If I assume there's no self Datura cannot do anything bad because bad is a creation of the mind. If there's no self there's no environment being hellish. 

But am I authentically considering that there's no self or am I just thinking it? I'm wondering if taking Datura could expose that.

It's clear that I am not authentic ehough about no self yet. (Only experienced it for a few seconds once in the middle of the night). But what about a truly enlightened person? There's no Truth in this experiment of course. it's just a perverse curiosity of mine.

My point is that, Datura having such a terrific history of bad trips I cannot just conclude "well of course enlightened people would overcome it". Perhaps in theory yes, if we adjust the definition of enlightened. But in that case the question becomes, is there really a single enlightened person on earth? I believe not. But perhaps there's people that are sufficiently close to go through a Datura trip without coming back insane.

Edited May 27, 2020 by 4201

[Mystica45]

I dont think an enlightened person would want to take psychedelics lol

[4201]

1 minute ago, Mystica45 said:

I dont think an enlightened person would want to take psychedelics lol

This is not a psychedelic, this is a deliriant. It has no benefit, only pure hell.

And the question is not if they would want to but if they would overcome it. Take the scenario in which we capture one and force that person to take it if that matters. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by 4201

[roopepa]

Let's do a test.

1. Take Datura, sit in zazen

2. Remain calm or get smacked by a fire-breathing demon with a stick

[4201]

Just now, Dutch guy said:

Enlightened persons arent magic wizards.  They just chop wood and carry water like before. So I expect they would react just like normal people

 

So think they would freak out and be stressed although those feelings may have been out of their system for decades?

The thing with drugs affecting the mind is that what you experience is some altered state of your mind but still the mind. The hell and demons aren't encoded in Datura's molecule. It has to come from inside. Are the mind of enlightened people the same as normal people? Lots of structural changes happen when you learn and understand things. So I would think not, but of course my opinion is not better than yours I'm only speculating.

[Fishy]

49 minutes ago, 4201 said:

So think they would freak out and be stressed although those feelings may have been out of their system for decades?

The thing with drugs affecting the mind is that what you experience is some altered state of your mind but still the mind. The hell and demons aren't encoded in Datura's molecule. It has to come from inside. Are the mind of enlightened people the same as normal people? Lots of structural changes happen when you learn and understand things. So I would think not, but of course my opinion is not better than yours I'm only speculating.

I doubt they would be traumatised for decades 

[Carl-Richard]

It's kinda like asking will an enlightened sailor be able to survive a rogue wave on stormy seas? It has probably more to do with the ship than the sailor. Datura does a very specific thing, and I don't think enlightenment will impact it very much.

[SoonHei]

@4201 really no different than asking "can an enlightened person stay chill in boiling water"

 

being enlightened simply means self is known.

[James123]

2 hours ago, Seraphim said:

@James123 The human can overcome things.

Maybe one of those highly advanced yogis who are not even affected by pain, could stay chill on datura Because if pain can't hurt you, then nothing would be scary.

But i am not the body or brain. I am the thing that aware of the body as nothing. If something happens to body, i will be right here. Enlightened person definitely feel the pain, however doesn’t suffer from it. Pain is a thought.

[James123]

2 hours ago, 4201 said:

In the environment becoming under the influence of Datura hellish there's an implicit bias of self that considers their environment bad or displeasing. Sure, If I assume there's no self Datura cannot do anything bad because bad is a creation of the mind. If there's no self there's no environment being hellish. 

But am I authentically considering that there's no self or am I just thinking it? I'm wondering if taking Datura could expose that.

Yes. It is a good question. However, Except the truth, everything is an illusion  and distraction including datura. We are not seeing from the eyes, Infinite consciousness seeing from the eye. I believe, your question is similar to if enlightened person stay underneath of water for 1 hour, can still he/she be alive? 

[The observer]

Enlightened = permanently chill? Where do you get these myths from?

I've experienced states of complete detachment and fearlessness, and I assume that Datura basically removes you out of those states. So, even if you achieve full equanimity, the drug probably has the potential to destroy it in minutes.

Stoics are known to force themselves to experience hardships regularly so that they can appreciate the good things they have and lower their expectations of a comfortable life. If I live in equanimity for one week, I find it difficult to come back down to the ordinary state. I can only imagine that someone who has lived in equanimity for decades that he will freak out many times even more than the ordinary person, regardless of their degree of understanding. No one can save you from God's punishment except God. It's redundant to say that the suffering is due attachment and lack of surrendering. Because surrendering is a grace from God, and without it you are lost and powerless. Self or no-self. Surrendered or attached. It was never up to you. God controls everything.

[4201]

3 hours ago, The observer said:

I've experienced states of complete detachment and fearlessness, and I assume that Datura basically removes you out of those states. So, even if you achieve full equanimity, the drug probably has the potential to destroy it in minutes.

Truth is that we don't know. We only have reported cases of fearfulness from people that have (probably) not experienced state of complete detachment and fearlessness, let alone experience them regularly like I would presume an enlightened person would do. Bringing down the definition of enlightened to someone that is only aware part-time rather than full-time doesn't change the question. 

This assumption is quite bold and this is basically what I'm curious about here. This is not an unsolveable problem, an experiment could be made to determine if Datura triggers already existing fears and attachment within people (which renders is useless against "fully" enlightened people) or if it forces the state regardless of the user's ability to let go.

And we don't need a fully enlightened person to determine that. Simply experimenting with somebody that is close to enlightement would be sufficient to make a decent guess about the effect of Datura on enlightened people.

Edited May 27, 2020 by 4201

[James123]

8 minutes ago, 4201 said:

Truth is that we don't know. We only have reported cases of fearfulness from people that have (probably) not experienced state of complete detachment and fearlessness, let alone experience them regularly like I would presume an enlightened person would do. Bringing down the definition of enlightened to someone that is only aware part-time rather than full-time doesn't change the question. 

This assumption is quite bold and this is basically what I'm curious about here. This is not an unsolveable problem, an experiment could be made to determine if Datura triggers already existing fears and attachment within people (which renders is useless against "fully" enlightened people) or if it forces the state regardless of the user's ability to let go.

And we don't need a fully enlightened person to determine that. Simply experimenting with somebody that is close to enlightement would be sufficient to make a decent guess about the effect of Datura on enlightened people.

They can handle the experience. I dont know they still can be aware or not. But they will watch the experience and mot get affected. Such as they wont mention as a terrible trip, it is just part of infinite nothingness.

[Carl-Richard]

@James123 U sure?

[James123]

38 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

@James123 U sure?

Yes. Believe me i burned in the hell for million times, my molecules smashed into million pieces. I was a piece of meat, i got into grander machine, and granded thousands times. Inly way to overcome psychologically is there is no you. And i overcome, so there is no me left. Additionally, i dont know will they be out of conscious or not? But definitely, even maybe i can handle the experience, but maybe not my body (heart disease, epilepsy). 

Edited May 28, 2020 by James123

[The observer]

11 hours ago, 4201 said:

This assumption is quite bold and this is basically what I'm curious about here. This is not an unsolveable problem, an experiment could be made to determine if Datura triggers already existing fears and attachment within people (which renders is useless against "fully" enlightened people) or if it forces the state regardless of the user's ability to let go.

It could be either way or both ways. If it's both, then the experiment is doomed. If it forces the state, then it's doomed too. If it triggers already existing fears and attachment, then it's doomed too, because it would trigger the fear of letting go, and the attachment to detachment, which is hell.

Or, that's what I am convinced it would do.

[James123]

5 hours ago, The observer said:

It could be either way or both ways. If it's both, then the experiment is doomed. If it forces the state, then it's doomed too. If it triggers already existing fears and attachment, then it's doomed too, because it would trigger the fear of letting go, and the attachment to detachment, which is hell.

Or, that's what I am convinced it would do.

If you have nothing to lose, it will be a just experience. Believe me