Is Reality Real?

[Nahm]

1 minute ago, IJB063 said:

@Nahm

Why not?
It seems like a game to me

Bliss appears as games, projection, me’s, and is in kind veiled by itself. 

1 minute ago, IJB063 said:

“You have to take seriously the notion that understanding the universe is your responsibility, because the only understanding of the universe that will be useful to you is your own understanding.“

“My technique is don’t believe anything. If you believe in something, you are automatically precluded from believing its opposite.“

Right now I believe in beliefs that’s a belief, I believe not believing in beliefs is a beliefs, so you can’t not believe in beliefs, you believe in beliefs too

I believe in Is right now yeah

I can’t imagine a world where I didnt because I wouldn’t exist

 

Absence is not an opposite. Not believing in beliefs is not a belief, any more than not driving a car is driving a car. Nonexistence is not an opposite. 

[IJB063]

@Nahm

1 minute ago, Nahm said:

Bliss appears as games, projection, me’s, and is in kind veiled by itself.

If that’s your idea of bliss it’s pretty twisted

2 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Absence is not an opposite. Not believing in beliefs is not a belief, any more than not driving a car is driving a car. Nonexistence is not an opposite. 

Not taking a position is a position?

[Nahm]

@IJB063

Bliss is not an idea, but appears to be, by appearing twisted. 

No. 

[IJB063]

@Member

Whats your point with the example, that the spoon is only a figment of your imagination and there is no separation with you and the spoon

It is the Matrix and Neo is in it in that scene, so the movie director could of just been thinking that this applies in the “fake” world of the matrix, what you’re doing is your saying that the same logic can be applied to the “real” world as well?

@Preety_India

You haven’t yet proven that you are the thinker of your thoughts, so you can’t say that you exist, so the “I am” would be invalidated 

[IJB063]

@Nahm

I don’t understand you buddy

Im probably going to need to dose myself and meditate on what youre saying, because right now I either can’t wrap my head around what it is you’re saying or you’re talking shit 

I honestly don’t know which 

4 minutes ago, Nahm said:

No

I don’t understand how you can just opt out of answering these questions

Edited May 25, 2020 by IJB063

[Preety_India]

@IJB063

Once again...... Cogito Ergo Sum. 

(to me I exist, because I think so, to you whether I exist or not doesn't matter and since you cannot prove my non existence or existence with solid proof, you cannot make an assumption on my existence, just like I cannot prove to you my existence, you cannot prove to me my non existence, that's why  I  exist if I think (only to me) , you exist if you think(only to you) , a summary of that quote) 

To me reality is in the eyes of the observer. Would you know if reality exists if you didn't exist? The answer is no. 

So reality exists as long as your mind exists. But when your mind stops thinking or dead, reality ceases to exist. 

This again bears the question, if reality is real. Notice that this is turning into a strange loop just like the question, who came first, egg or chicken? 

So one thing is established here that reality is an object relative to the perceived. One can't be sure of this object, once the perceiver is gone. 

In practical terms, reality does exist even if you are dead, because it exists to others. 

This is collective reality.again the same dilemma. What if everyone dies. Will this collective reality exist? 

The answer is uncertain. 

My take is. 

Since reality is context dependent, it's independent nature is a principle of uncertainty. 

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Preety_India

[Member]

3 minutes ago, IJB063 said:

@Member

Whats your point with the example, that the spoon is only a figment of your imagination and there is no separation with you and the spoon

It is the Matrix and Neo is in it in that scene, so the movie director could of just been thinking that this applies in the “fake” world of the matrix, what you’re doing is your saying that the same logic can be applied to the “real” world as well?

The 'outside' world could be the same as our bodies. So the outside and the inside are just mind projections, you know what I mean.

 

[Nahm]

5 minutes ago, IJB063 said:

 

I don’t understand you buddy

Im probably going to need to dose myself and meditate on what youre saying, because right now I either can’t wrap my head around what it is you’re saying or you’re talking shit 

I honestly don’t know which 

I don’t understand how you can just opt out of answering these questions

Nobody does. 

No I am not. 

The answer was no. 

[IJB063]

@Preety_India

I don’t what not existing looks like

8 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

So reality exists as long as your mind exists. But when your mind stops thinking or dead, reality ceases to exist. 

We don’t know if it is just the mind that creates reality, it could be the soul or spirit, god etc...

If something doesn’t exist how can it be real?

How can anything be independent of consciousness?

Youre right this is a strange loop

@Member

Yep, that’s nonduality I think

@Nahm

Well looks like where at an impasse then buddy

Good luck proving youre not talking shit if no one understands you

“No” doesn’t make any sense

 

[Preety_India]

@IJB063

ok trying to remove the entities of mind, spirit, God etc and simplifying and breaking it down further. 

Now I only use consciousness. 

Within consciousness, reality exists. But independent of consciousness, there is nothing to prove whether it exists or not. 

An analogy of the relationship between consciousness and reality can be a mirror. 

You look into the mirror. You see yourself. Now turn a bit to the side of the mirror, hide from it. Can you be certain if the mirror shows your image now? Now to know that you will need to once again peep into this mirror. Which means the only way to know if the mirror reflects you is to look at the mirror. But when you are not in front of it you can't tell. Similarly reality can be a reflection of consciousness. It could be only be visible when the consciousness perceives or reflects it. But when it doesn't, nobody can tell. 

This means consciousness and reality are objects in one frame related to each other and inseparable. One cannot exist without the other and so the existence can't be proven or unproven since they are quantum bound. 

 

[Member]

This world looks a trap, or the devil. Maybe we are the devils of our own reality. The truth is that we have no clue about what are we doing here. Or do we have to do anything? Maybe movement is illusory and we don't do anything at all. Do we have any choice? And if we do, what is there to choose? So yeah, this quest could go on forever... infinity has no bottom.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Member

[IJB063]

@Preety_India

Okay, I think I have a better understanding of what you’re saying

Interesting analogy with the mirror

I don’t really see a point in creating a distinction between consciousness and reality then, it creates needless confusion

The way people use the term “reality”, the things out there, the external, what is separate from you, is illusory  

And both consciousness and reality are linked in symbiosis, to the point that reality is subjective, because it’s dependent upon consciousness

@Member
If you have your own reality, then it isn’t really reality though is it, it’s subjective

[Nahm]

@IJB063

Godspeed. ?

[IJB063]

@Nahm

You too brother

[Preety_India]

9 minutes ago, IJB063 said:

And both consciousness and reality are linked in symbiosis, to the point that reality is subjective, because it’s dependent upon consciousness

Even if there is a symbiotic relationship between consciousness and reality, let's see who impacts more. 

Let's say that you are a general who is contemplating war and If everyone agreed, then war will happen. This is consciousness impacting reality. However as you can see, your decision to start a war was voluntary. 

Now take the same example and reverse it. You have been transported to a country while you slept, against your will and there is a war happening there. You're finding yourself dealing with the reality of war. This is reality impacting your consciousness. However this was involuntary. 

So in this symbiotic relationship, reality impacts consciousness in a involuntary manner whereas consciousness impacts reality in a voluntary manner. 

Thus by changing consciousness voluntarily and carefully its possible to change the nature of reality 

This is pretty much the basis of the law of attraction and the book secret..

Changing reality by changing thinking. 

 

[Member]

11 minutes ago, IJB063 said:

The way people use the term “reality”, the things out there, the external, what is separate from you, is illusory. And both consciousness and reality are linked in symbiosis, to the point that reality is subjective, because it’s dependent upon consciousness

The problem is that no matter how enlightened we are, there is still this perceived separation between the body and external world. That means that duality is still within. So how can we escape from this trap and bend spoons with our mind? I'm serious.

[Preety_India]

 

Two things can be in a symbiotic relationship with each other without being interchangeable and same. 

They can still be  two separate entities that are mutually exclusive. 

A lot of people believe in duality. 

There is no such consensus that only non duality is the absolute truth. 

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Preety_India

[Preety_India]

 

I believe in the duality, in 2 fundamental symbiotic energies, similar to the school of thought of Empedocles of the law of opposites, similar to yin and yang, the self and the reflection, and Newton's third law of motion, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, cause and effect, this to me establishes the duality of the universe. 

 

[IJB063]

@Preety_India

I still see no point in drawing a distinction between reality and consciousness, if what you’re saying is meta physically true, because I don’t see how there can be an internal and an external at the same time

What your doing is just categorising some aspects of consciousness and labelling them “real”

No, it’s all consciousness

How can it be real (by the definition of real) if it’s dependent upon consciousness

@Member

28 minutes ago, Member said:

The problem is that no matter how enlightened we are, there is still this perceived separation between the body and external world. That means that duality is still within. So how can we escape from this trap and bend spoons with our mind? I'm serious.

Man I’ve been a k hole, and I did not experience a separation between the body and the external world, both merged into one another

Its not a trap, it’s our nature, unless one is insane, to experience reality via our five senses 

Ive experiences synesthesia via LSD before, that’s why I don’t really believe that there is the internal and the external / inside and outside 

There is what there is

Edited May 25, 2020 by IJB063

[Preety_India]

 

Sometimes the simplest answer is the best one like the Occam's razor. 

The simplest answer can be that nature of reality is uncertain.. So we are uncertain if it's real or not.