Is Reality Real?

[IJB063]

I’m gonna put this in the self actualisation section cause it said right next to the main title “philosophy”, which I thought suited better than the meditation section. Anyway this is gonna just be some rambling train of thought type stuff, but if anyone could help answer some of my questions that would be greatly appreciated.

So I was listening to some Mckenna, and stumbled upon this clip above on YouTube, and I thought it was really interesting. 

And I thought it ties in with dimensions kinda, let me explain and it’ll make sense,  here’s the post on dimensions

In the clip Terence talks about a divide between those who understand that we’re really just chimps with “brains full of mush”that couldn’t possible claim to know the inner workings of the universe and those who still believe in “truth” and “objective reality” and that as humans we can still, despite our condition, truly understand the nature of reality, if there is such a thing. 

What I really liked in this clip was the termite analogy, which is - what would you think if you met a termite who stated that it was his or her goal to achieve a perfect modelling of the Cosmos? Legitimately curious what you think person reading this.

I’m sure from our human perspectives we would see, as Terence says, that it’s quite a comic undertaking.

Yet that is the exact undertaking all of us bear upon our shoulders and beat ourselves with, when we fall short of an most liekly impossible entirely abstract ideal that no one in the history of humanity has ever achieved (I suspect). Although some of us claim to have, though I doubt it. Even people like Leo who claim to have worked all this shit out by dosing themselves, similar to Terence, with high powered entheogens, probably haven’t. (Also I f there is consciousness and that is infinite Why bother attempting to create some hierarchy with yourself at the top as though your anymore conscious than anyone else, all there is is consciousness right? And if it’s infinite you could never possibly be on top)

Perhaps you have figured it all out, but maybe your deluded and could never possibly understand what reality is (whatever reality is). 

Which is what this posts about really, if I carry on with the termite analogy, were I to push my thumb down upon and crush a termite I doubt that it would be able to compute (were it able to reflect on its death) what had just happened to it; as it entirely lacks the cognitive ability to do so. By the same token, perhaps as humans, we too can’t compute and cognate what death is, maybe some inter-dimensional and godlike entity pushes its thumb down upon us and we compute that as something along the lines of “hey did you hear the news, jack died last week in a car crash” blah blah etc… when really Jack was crushed by the thumb of some strange extra dimensional alien entity. And I wouldn’t be surprised because life really does seem to be a joke to me and god as a comedian sort of character who just likes fucking with us for his own amusement.

Also were reality to be infinite consciousness, then there would be infinite dimensions, infinite possible possibilities and infinite series of possible intelligences. Intelligence being the degree to which a organism/consciousness can compute and interpret data and apply that data to further it’s biological imperative. But where does that data come from? If reality isn’t real/there’s no objective reality. If reality is consciousness, than an organism is just exploring itself and what it is.

Also if that’s the case then how could there ever be a reality? Look at dimensions, were you to take a 1 dimensional line that was infinite, the x gradient instantly becomes meaningless as it ceases to quantify, well quantify anything meaningful, as meaning requires something else to lack, likewise if there are infinite intelligence we will all simultaneously be as dull as a termite and as intelligent as god himself, so what good would our beliefs be.

Aren’t beliefs really just stupid and pointless and entirely subjective, if that’s the case. You are what you are and that’s all you will ever be till your not. 

When Terence says the best we can hope for is a shadow of a shadow of the truth. I think that’s literally infinitely too optimistic till the point that it’s an empty statement.

Anyway when Terence goes on to talk about language I find that pretty amazing as well, because that’s the point I was making with the belief stuff. That’s we evolved/created language really to deceive others and ourselves into believing that there is a reality, and that we use and manipulate that to our advantage. Here are two links to help make my point

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds

http://sourcesofinsight.com/the-elephant-and-the-rider/

Reason, as covered in the article by the New Yorker, "Why facts don't change our minds" is an evolved mental firmware "like bipedalism or three colour vision". This firmware evolved on the savannas of Africa as our best advantage as human beings is our ability to communicate and therefore cooperate. Cooperation is difficult to establish and also difficult to maintain. 

“Reason is an adaptation to the hyper social niche humans have evolved for themselves" Mercier and Sperber write. Habits of mind that seem weird or goofy or just plain dumb from an “intellectualist” point of view prove shrewd when seen from a social “interactionist” perspective.

As Nietzsche said - “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.”

Of the many forms of faulty thinking that have been identified, confirmation bias is among the best catalogued; it’s the subject of entire textbooks’ worth of experiments. Why would we have confirmation bias, of course to deceive ourselves and others about the nature of reality, so that we can be hyper social.

This hyper sociability I believe is the reason why we have this tool of “reason”, which is a hijacking of our base animalistic desire to cooperate. Reason is not designed for understanding the external realities, our dimensions, or consciousness, otherwise we would not have confirmation bias. But instead as the article covers it provides the adaptive function which is refereed to as "myside bias". Human aren't randomly credulous, myside bias means that the task that reason was evolved to perform,  is to prevent us from getting screwed by the other members of our group. Living in small bands of hunter-gatherers, our ancestors were primarily concerned with their social standing, and with making sure that they weren’t the ones risking their lives on the hunt while others loafed around in the cave. There was little advantage in reasoning clearly, while much was to be gained from winning arguments.

This means something hugely significant, that even the reason why we reason and the fundamental way in which we compute reality is bullshit. Because we don’t reason to understand what is “real”, but instead to survive via cooperation. So there’s no point even trying to reason with people, they won’t understand you, they either comply to the script or they don’t. Even if they get it, they did it themselves of there own accord, not because you transferred some magical knowledge of reality into them, they just explored there own consciousness and derived at there own conclusions for there own reasons unrelated to reality. Which obviously includes me and everyone else.

The relativity of your cultural viewpoint as Terence says. All language is, is a series of sounds that we delude to mean something but might as well be fart noises when you look behind the curtain and see why we have language to ecen begin with. Anyway I’m going stop typing, hope this made sense here are my questions, sorry for this being long winded, my thoughts are, and this is one place I have the opportunity to vent them out and have smart people respond and decipher them, so

What is reality?

Can we understand reality, if there is such a thing?

If so, is there any real point to understanding reality?

 

 

 

 

[Nahm]

Understanding is itself.

[IJB063]

@Nahm Understanding is real?

What are you understanding though?

If not reality?

[Nahm]

@IJB063

There is no “understander”. 

 

 

[IJB063]

@Nahm

Than how can you understand anything?

[Nahm]

@IJB063

There is no “understander”.

[IJB063]

@Nahm

You put

46 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Understanding is itself.

Now I don’t understand (lol) how you can have understanding without an understander 

This Buddhist esque riddle shit is annoying because I don’t know what you’re trying to say and you have the benefit of obfuscation 

Edited May 25, 2020 by IJB063
Using “esk” instead of esque

[IJB063]

“There is a transcendental dimension beyond language... It's just hard as hell to talk about!“ - Terence Mckenna

 

[Nahm]

Bliss is neither an understander, Buddhist, annoying, nor trying. It is itself. 

[Amit]

Understander is reality, not undertaker 

[Member]

1 hour ago, IJB063 said:

The relativity of your cultural viewpoint as Terence says. All language is, is a series of sounds that we delude to mean something but might as well be fart noises when you look behind the curtain and see why we have language to ecen begin with.

What is reality?

Can we understand reality, if there is such a thing?

If so, is there any real point to understanding reality?

Personally I think that we have no clue what reality is. Sometimes I feel like the everyday life is staged and we either trick our minds into believing everything is normal and play by the rules, or we play by the rules of something else. Only the fact that we seem to live in totally different universes despite occupying almost the same space and time is truly surreal to me. It feels weird and reality is definitely weird. Maybe we will never know what reality is.

[Member]

8 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Bliss is neither an understander, Buddhist, annoying, nor trying. It is itself. 

This "itself" looks like is lying or is playing some weird games with us, don't you think?

[IJB063]

@Member Exactly brother it’s surreal

And as Terence says in the clip, what psychedelics do is they stretch pull and melt the illusion making machinery of which our realities are made up off

Its the momentary brief clarity where you can finally see the forest through the trees

We have no frame of reference for reality but our own, but I can tell (I’m guessing) that all people practically occupy their own dimensions 

Does some child soldier in worn torn Africa even really occupy the same reality as a child to a multi millionaire in California, if they swapped positions in life it’d be close to equivalent of changing complete realities 

Schopenhauer had a quote along the lines that - life is only kept in motion by desire and illusion

We either make our own rules in life or we have are rules placed upon us by culture

[IJB063]

@Nahm

17 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Bliss is neither an understander, Buddhist, annoying, nor trying. It is itself. 

What is that if not a riddle?

I don’t believe reality is bliss

[Nahm]

@Member

No. 

[Nahm]

@IJB063

Nothing. 

Are I’s and beliefs believed?

[Member]

@IJB063 If you want a mindfuck interpretation, then this is my best guess:

Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.

Neo: What truth?

Spoon boy: There is no spoon.

Neo: There is no spoon?

Spoon boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

 

[IJB063]

@Nahm

2 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Member

No. 

Why not?
It seems like a game to me

1 minute ago, Nahm said:

@IJB063

Nothing. 

Do you believe in I’s and beliefs?

“You have to take seriously the notion that understanding the universe is your responsibility, because the only understanding of the universe that will be useful to you is your own understanding.“

“My technique is don’t believe anything. If you believe in something, you are automatically precluded from believing its opposite.“

Right now I believe in beliefs that’s a belief, I believe not believing in beliefs is a beliefs, so you can’t not believe in beliefs, you believe in beliefs too

I believe in Is right now yeah

I can’t imagine a world where I didnt because I wouldn’t exist

 

[Preety_India]

 

Cogito Ergo Sum

 

 

[IJB063]

@Preety_India

Yep that’s the basis of all Western philosophy 

But does it really mean anything though?

I think therefore I am

It seems like it entails unproven (maybe unprovable) presuppositions

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by IJB063