Can values and morals be universal?

[Rhia]

Due to my profession, I have gone through tons of literature on how humane values are created and perceived in different cultures, and I have found some of them being more prevalent than others in various geographical locations, and I started to wonder if these are inseparable from human nature and universal values, or it a historical impact of the meeting of cultures (still interesting how certain ideas are more likely to be picked over the others even dating back to before the appearance of any monotheistic religions - murder and stealing is wrong in most cultures, soul is separable from the body and is connected to higher entities, incest is wrong, and so on). Some values are highly variable depending on culture and location, some are present and strong almost everywhere. 

So the question here - are there universal values that necessarily present and are higher than others, and if so, do we have the right to consider them as a global moral code?

[Rilles]

18 minutes ago, Rhia said:

Due to my profession, I have gone through tons of literature on how humane values are created and perceived in different cultures, and I have found some of them being more prevalent than others in various geographical locations, and I started to wonder if these are inseparable from human nature and universal values, or it a historical impact of the meeting of cultures (still interesting how certain ideas are more likely to be picked over the others even dating back to before the appearance of any monotheistic religions - murder and stealing is wrong in most cultures, soul is separable from the body and is connected to higher entities, incest is wrong, and so on). Some values are highly variable depending on culture and location, some are present and strong almost everywhere. 

So the question here - are there universal values that necessarily present and are higher than others, and if so, do we have the right to consider them as a global moral code?

What are you but the universe itself? 

[Leo Gura]

The universal value is God/Love/Truth/Consciousness/Selflessness/Goodness.

The only true morality is one which recognizes that all acts of evil are actually Good. Hence anything goes.

[docs20]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The universal value is God/Love/Truth/Consciousness/Selflessness/Goodness.

The only true morality is one which recognizes that all acts of evil are actually Good. Hence anything goes.

This opens up the question. For everyday living and action you still need to be able to decide something that is more or less good, cause if you act according to the Truth that even Evil is part of the Good you're basically justified to do anything. 
It would kind of become like Nazis who were using Buddhism to detach themselves from actions at are relatively not so good.

[Leo Gura]

@docs20 Like I said, anything goes.

Your question is one of survival, which is falsehood, which is evil. Hence by trying to survive, you create the evil which you claim you want to avoid.

To truly be Good you must surrender survival. Which is why hardly any human is Good. The one thing you need to do to be truly moral, you refuse to do.

See, "morality" is something the evil ego uses to create a smokescreen to distract from its own fundamental selfishness. If you're worried about people being immoral, that's only because their immorality interferes with your ability to be immoral.

Immorality is just selfishness. So a self cannot be moral. Only no-self can be moral.

[Rhia]

 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@docs20 Like I said, anything goes.

Your question is one of survival, which is falsehood, which is evil. Hence by trying to survive, you create the evil which you claim you want to avoid.

To truly be Good you must surrender survival. Which is why hardly any human is Good. The one thing you need to do to be truly moral, you refuse to do.

See, "morality" is something the evil ego uses to create a smokescreen to distract from its own fundamental selfishness. If you're worried about people being immoral, that's only because their immorality interferes with your ability to be immorality.

Hello there; I would like to reflect on this dual world view that I found here. First, to understand your answer better, you should reason why the question is of survival, and how it is falsehood. You build the entire chain on statements that you do not support with any further explanation, so it is difficult to exactly interpret what's written above. I have not claimed I want to avoid evil, as I said, it might be exactly the opposite, as what postulates as evil on one side that might be a value on the other one, and may have totally different meanings on many others. Further, any and all living creatures are intrinsically motivated to survive, which, in your interpretation is evil, therefore all our actions are evil except for those that are not directed to survival. That is very few. I agree although (and I wonder if this is what you meant), rules are created to make survival easier, rules are created to make us safer - every single rule has significance in social networks, I could hardly ever found one which has only one function; to make you better. Are there any rules if you are alone on an empty planet? No. Rules are created to exist together and make sense only if we exist together. Therefore all rules (moral codes, and their cement, values) are pointing towards society, survival. In this system, our simple existence shall be evil, and we must give up our need to exist - this is against our nature, and all laws of nature, simply the way this world exists.
Surrendering survival? - I am not sure I understand you, please explain.
"See, "morality" is something the evil ego uses to create a smokescreen to distract from its own fundamental selfishness." - The question is not really this. The question is if in this "smokescreen" there is anything that appears everywhere as universal? Yes or no?

Anything goes?  - I reject that. Simply. You cannot reject anything and everything. I found your answers being full of contradictions, so I am asking you to clarify a couple of points if you find the time for that.

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Rhia said:

Anything goes?  - I reject that.

Of course you do. Because you are selfish. And thus evil.

See, you reject yourself and you reject God (which is everything). One who rejects God is otherwise known as a devil.

Survival requires that you reject that anything goes. Which is why survival must be surrendered if you wish to be Good.

[Hello from Russia]

@Leo Gura What does it mean (technically speaking) to surrender survival? is it physical death? Or the ego-death will suffice?

Edited May 25, 2020 by Hello from Russia

[docs20]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@docs20 Like I said, anything goes.

Your question is one of survival, which is falsehood, which is evil. Hence by trying to survive, you create the evil which you claim you want to avoid.

To truly be Good you must surrender survival. Which is why hardly any human is Good. The one thing you need to do to be truly moral, you refuse to do.

See, "morality" is something the evil ego uses to create a smokescreen to distract from its own fundamental selfishness. If you're worried about people being immoral, that's only because their immorality interferes with your ability to be immoral.

Immorality is just selfishness. So a self cannot be moral. Only no-self can be moral.

I think that a video on this topic is needed, and not just for me, cause I think it's a topic that is valuable for anyone doing spiritual work the one about morality and ethics.

I just partially understand what you're saying. Like yeah of course it's about survival, but still to trascend survival steadily and fully you need to literally drop dead and not be a human anymore, and then you'll be totally self-less.

Still I understand that from the Absolute perspective all is Good, but still it's when it comes to everyday action we can't fully act according to that, imho, cause then me being a bit drunk and taking the car and running a kid killing him it's still something that God pov is still good but still brings suffering into yourself and into the world. In that situation still some personal ethic and some society moral is needed

[Rhia]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course you do. Because you are selfish. And thus evil. - 

Everyone is selfish, you must be selfish, otherwise, you wouldn't exist. Telling people not to be selfish because it is evil, is like telling your heart not to beat, the wind not to blow, the rain not to fall. I must be selfish to an extent to fulfill my existence. Evil has a lot more multilayered existence than being simply "evil". Evil is the doubt. The inquiry, Curiosity. ...and indeed, ego, at least in the Christian world view. But it all sounds like you can either be good or evil, and completely give up yourself or be completely selfish. It sounds very extreme, es if everything was black and white.

See, you reject yourself and you reject God (which is everything). - How do I reject myself?  I didn't get this. Do I reject God?

One who rejects God is otherwise known as a devil. - This is dualistic and narrows down my question to the worldview of one monotheistic religion. Consequently what I understand is that according to those who follow the Christian God, God is the only universal truth (I don't mean to argue). Here you are talking about a truth that is from your point of view exists regardless to human beings. I am talking about truth, values, and morals that exist because of them, everywhere (the word "universal" might be misleading, but I don't regret, gives a good direction).

Survival requires that you reject that anything goes. - That is agreed

Which is why survival must be surrendered if you wish to be Good. - You must end your selfishness if you want to be good, that is also agreed.

 

[Rhia]

 

 

 

1

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The universal value is God/Love/Truth/Consciousness/Selflessness/Goodness.

The only true morality is one which recognizes that all acts of evil are actually Good. Hence anything goes.

As long as God is the creator, he is the Source. As long as he is the source, the creator, even evil originates from him, so if we accept that he is infinitely good (infinity is his existence), such a thing as pure evil or pure good, does not exist. Anything goes justifies anything and everything. It's like cutting God into half and saying this part is OK, this has to be completely forgotten.

[Rhia]

So I understand that we have started a conversation here regarding the definition of good and bad. I am curious though if there are values that appear throughout the entire world and all people think the same about it regardless to their religion/non-religion, social/financial status? Are there such taboos or imperatives?

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, Hello from Russia said:

@Leo Gura What does it mean (technically speaking) to surrender survival? is it physical death? Or the ego-death will suffice?

It means awakening.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I’ll meet you there.

When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about.
Ideas, language, even the phrase ‘each other’
doesn’t make any sense.

-- Rumi

[Conscious life]

On 5/25/2020 at 0:51 PM, Rhia said:

So the question here - are there universal values that necessarily present and are higher than others, and if so, do we have the right to consider them as a global moral code?

morality is universal. moral values are the same across the entire universe. even the smallest creatures have moral values encoded on them. 

 

On 5/25/2020 at 1:18 PM, Leo Gura said:

The universal value is God/Love/Truth/Consciousness/Selflessness/Goodness.

The only true morality is one which recognizes that all acts of evil are actually Good. Hence anything goes.

everybody is love, godly, selfless, and truth. 

"But many others, who oppose the truth and are the messengers of error, will set up their error and their law against these pure thoughts of mine, as looking out from one (perspective) thinking that good and evil are from one (source). They do business in my word. And they will propagate harsh fate." Jesus christ. 

"But others shall change from evil words and misleading mysteries. Some who do not understand mystery speak of things which they do not understand, but they will boast that the mystery of the truth is theirs alone. 

"For evil cannot produce good fruit. For the place from which each of them is produces that which is like itself;" 

Jesus christ. 

@leo Gura this is very dangerous teaching. either you have to go Meta to see the truth, or not having default position for your idea. that becomes your ego. 

morality is needed because people forget thier principles and they aren’t godly, conscious, love 24/7. they live in unconscious mind and when they are unconscious they resemble animals. so morality will serve them as a wall, a psychological lock of thier beast impulses. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Conscious life
missing statement

[Megan Alecia]

In theory turquoise values are higher than the others, because they are the least egocentric. 

[Conscious life]

On 5/25/2020 at 8:21 PM, Leo Gura said:

It means awakening.

What about people who don't awaken? are they devils? you are crucfiying yourself by your words. not everybody have the apportunity and possibility of awakening. when awaken persons operate as moral from consciousness and the unconscious person operate from moral values. they resemble same. 

are favouring consciousness as good and unconsciousness as evil, that is thought is evil. 

 

10 minutes ago, Megan Alecia said:

In theory turquoise values are higher than the others, because they are the least egocentric. 

no. everybody has ego. no one is free from ego. turquoise person doesn't see himself as turde, insect, or snake etc. everybody has equal and unique ego. 

 

On 5/25/2020 at 2:15 PM, Leo Gura said:

which is why survival must be surrendered if you wish to be Good.

how can you surrender servival? is surrendering servival is also a form servival strategy? monks have done this in history, to renounce servival. 

[Nahm]

@Conscious life

Survival’s a thought. Try to literally find it, point to it. Like death, birth, individual selves. Literally point to these, exactly, specifically these. Not notions, not thoughts about these. 

[Scholar]

I wouldn't say morality is universal, because it is a concept. However we can construct objective ideas of morality, in similar fashion in which physics can be objective. It does not mean it is universal, it still is relative to ones perspective, but it means that we can measure it and make truthapt statement within a certain framework.

Yes, Morality is very much a tool, like Physics, which is why it is good to have if be founded upon principles of reason and and expansion of identity. We can for example understand the nature of Suffering, which is a form of Existence which seeks to extingiush itself. It is a form of existence which is self-annihilating, it seeks to not exist. Notice how ingenius this creation is.

See, you do not need to tell anyone Suffering is bad or needs to get rid of, Suffering will make this happen simply by it's presence. In this way, God has instantiated his Will. The same is true for Well-being and so forth.

God created a world which constructs itself through a process of survival. Survival is not evil, nor is it inherently selfish. This kind of framing that Leo is presenting here is very much cultural and ideological rather than based in a true insight into the nature of Existence. The ego likes to say these kinds of things.

 

Morality is due to selfishness, but everything is due to selfishness. The Selfish and the Unselfish are one and the same. See, whether Leo likes it or not, Morality will evolve, Science will evolve, precisely because they are imaginary! They are a direct expression of God, his Will instantiated as imagination.

 

This kind of demonization and failure to recognize the Perfection or Morality and Judgement and Selfishness is egoic. God does not say it is evil to be selfish, God expresses itself directly, through all of us, through everything. Anything Leo will be able to utter will be a relative expression of this.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Scholar

[Megan Alecia]

@Conscious life That's not what I meant atvall, wasn't talking about a specific person, rather as far as universal turquoise values go. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Megan Alecia