Octavio Rettig Rebuttal

[Leo Gura]

There's been some constroversy around his work and I think this video does a good job of clearing up some of the negative rumors.

 

[traveler]

If I'm ever gonna take 5-meo I'm definitely going to do it with this guy. He seems to know what he's talking about, using tough love to optimize the overall experience of the medicine. 

Edit: okay so after watching some videos on this method I realize that it sounded like a better idea on paper than it did in practice. I take this comment back, lmao.

Edited May 25, 2020 by traveler

[allislove]

A little off topic, feel like to share:

I think it's rare case when person tried 5-MeO with shaman and without, so I want to share some thoughts. 

I want to say that, yeah, shaman gives you huge dose and you have a breakthrough. You feel Love, yourself. BUT... if you start from such dose you will have a feeling that you 'left' a body. You won't connect your experience after the trip with trip experience. Therefore, one breakthrough with shaman is not that 'useful'. 

I suggest to do it solo when you are ready, starting from the small doses. 

[Free Mind]

I don’t think choking someone with water in the midst of their Infinite nondual peak can be justified under any circumstance.

[Ry4n]

Where can I find the full video?

[Freakyboo]

Adeptus Psychonautica has released  videos since he released that one showing his disbelief and horror at Rettig's abusive practises, despite hearing this explanation.   I agree with him.  I can not find any way to justify forcing someone to stand up while on a heavy dose of 5meo then just allowing them to fall flat on the ground with no support, forcing water down their nose and mouth constantly (any medical expert would be horrified), kicking them, shouting abuse at them and then forcing them to take more high doses without their consent.

5meo is already the most intense experience a person will ever have.  Why do they need to be waterboarded or abused physically and verbally on top of that?  

Edited May 25, 2020 by Freakyboo

[Lyubov]

On the same channel is a video of him pouring water down the throat of a participant as well as kicking and yelling at a guy having a bad trip....

I will reserve my judgement of his character but of his method.... it's dangerous and not a healthy way to trip I'd say for most people. But if someone wishes to still have him hold space for them be my guest, plenty still signing up for his seminars. You all can be the judge of whether or not you would work under him. 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Lyubov

[Leo Gura]

What's nice about these videos is that they show you what you're signing up for when you sign up with Octavio. So if you want a bootcamp type of experience where he pushes you for a full breakthrough -- and that can be valuable if you're a whimp -- then he's the guy for you.

From my experience trip-sitting folks who take 5-MeO-DMT, many of them whimp out and back out after the first or second dose and they never get a breakthrough. Of course I never push them further. But I can see the value in pushing someone who's just being a whimp. The ego-mind is very clever in avoiding a 5-MeO-DMT breakthrough. It's like it subconsciously knows to stay away from a full dose.

I would just never want the responsibility of pushing someone in way over their head. So I don't push people.

But at the same time, when I see someone whimp out, it is heartbreaking that they are basically saying No! to the most important experience of their life. Sad.

You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[Lyubov]

hey... as long as it's transparent and clear to all those signing up to how he facilitates be my guest

[Whatwhat]

It's not pretty what he does but I respect him. I believe a breakthrough is more likely to occur with an external assist(love and trust) from others. 

[OBEler]

He is the Expert. He does not Do this to every body just to those who need it the most (addicts)

 

[Rilles]

hm... watched the video again after hearing Octavios explanation... didnt look as bad this time... the kick in the butt was kind of soft to be honest... interesting how the mind perceives differently with hearing different interpretations... its almost like Octavio is exorcising the devil (ego) out of you

Edited May 25, 2020 by Rilles

[Space]

I think the issue here is smoking the natural substance, rather than plugging synthetic like I have done and Leo as well of course. 

Plugging synthetic seems so much more manageable, safe, and produces a more stable and clear experience. When people smoke the venom they end up just rolling around, basically going completely unconscious and doing all sorts of dangerous shit. I can plug the synthetic substance and remain totally in control with extreme levels of clarity. 

Also I have never seen anyone smoke the venom and then start doing bilateral symmetry yoga. Why is this the case? Differences in substance between natural and synthetic?

[Leo Gura]

17 minutes ago, Space said:

bilateral symmetry yoga

This is something Martin Ball invented.

I get the sense that Octavio gives them some massive doses. It's much easier to get freaked out that way than the gradual way that we dose here.

[docs20]

A few kicks in the butt is no more different than Zen monks beating you with a stick

[Leo Gura]

The biggest concern is having people standing and then falling and hitting their heads. That's dangerous.

[legendary]

I smoked the toad venom under Octavio's guidance in 2018.

Yes, tbh, he is a very politically incorrect guy. When I told him that my intention for the trip was to understand what God is, he started laughing at me. He shouts at and kicks people (men) whose ego has resurfaced amidst the trip and have begun fighting the experience. He also flirts with the women who smoke (or are about to) the venom. However, to be fair to him, he does seem to intuitively weigh in how he should handle a situation before acting. When my ego resurfaced, he tried talking and negotiating with me because he knew that would be the best way. It is hilarious when I watch the recorded clip now. He also genuinely cares about people.

My biggest problems with his method were:

• He had way too many people signed up for the experience. So as soon as someone's trip was underway, he would leave them with a friend and move on to the next person. A shaman is supposed to be there with you all along the way.
• He has a tobacco extract called rapé, which he blows in people's noses using a pipe. He often used it after the 5-MeO trips, and that cut the trips short for many people. Even in my case, it buzzed me and made me puke, but it also made me sober up and ended my 5-MeO trip.
• He uses a very high dose at the onset. Several people at the retreat (including me) experienced whiteouts and didn't remember much of the trip. Very few people got to do a second trip afterward.

3 hours ago, Space said:

Also I have never seen anyone smoke the venom and then start doing bilateral symmetry yoga. Why is this the case? Differences in substance between natural and synthetic?

I have seen several people doing bilateral symmetry yoga on the toad. I did it for a large portion of the trip. For me, there was no difference between the synthetic drug and the toad venom in terms of bilateral symmetry.

[Space]

1 hour ago, legendary said:

I have seen several people doing bilateral symmetry yoga on the toad. I did it for a large portion of the trip. For me, there was no difference between the synthetic drug and the toad venom in terms of bilateral symmetry.

Interesting, thanks for the clarification. I only comment on it because its such a spontaneous and natural phenomena for me during the trip so its strange not seeing it happen for other people. 

You mention the negatives of the group session with Octavio, any positives?

[allislove]

5 hours ago, Space said:

I think the issue here is smoking the natural substance, rather than plugging synthetic like I have done and Leo as well of course. 

I think the issue here is with dosing. 
When I did 50% venom + 50% synthetic with shaman, huge dose, I can't "remember" what body did during the trip.
When I took synthetic solo, but 5 times smaller dose  it's completely different story,  bilateral symmetry movements are quite helpful to let go  

[traveler]

 I really like how he approached this situation. To me his intentions are pure here, I think he is trying to force his body open so energy doesn't get blocked, but wtf do I know lol. Very interesting though.

Btw if this is how a 5-meo experience looks from the outside, I don't know how you would say it is safe to do alone. 

This on the other hand is pretty fucked

Edited May 25, 2020 by traveler