Leo vs Sam Haris

[The observer]

23 minutes ago, Jacobsrw said:

@The observer Rationality is only but one formulation of linguistical expression. Many other forms of language far exceed it. That’s the main point.

Nope. You're just biased towards those other forms of expression.

From an objective pov, all viewpoints are equal. All viewpoints are merely viewpoints. To say that some viewpoint is "truer" than another, it means to be biased towards it and blinded towards the other. The mind loves to attach to a particular viewpoint. It cannot deal with opposing views. For example, explaining mystical experiences as valid communication with spirits must necessarily invalidate the rational explanations.

That's all mind games and not the truth.

Edited May 25, 2020 by The observer

[Preety_India]

18 minutes ago, Jacobsrw said:

rationality has its purpose. It’s knowing when to use it and when to abstain from it.

I'm of the same opinion. I don't mean to say abandon rationality. 

 

[Amit]

Quote

Rationality is only but one formulation of linguistical expression. Many other forms of language far exceed it.

@Jacobsrw

Rationality is not just limited to expressing oneself aka language, but it's a process of using intelligence to derive truth, without it, you won't be able to recognize falsehood masquerading as truth.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Amit
quoting

[Someone here]

Is it rational that rationality have limits or is it irrational? 

[The observer]

2 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Is it rational that rationality have limits or is it irrational? 

Nice one!

[Amit]

@Someone here depends on how you define rationality. 

This is irrational because you can rationalize about anything that comes into your consciousness, so it doesn't have limits.

[Someone here]

Just now, Amit said:

@Someone here depends on how you define rationality. 

This is irrational because you can rationalize about anything that comes into your consciousness, so it doesn't have limits.

Even when you are pointing out the limits of rationality you are using rationality.  Because =causality.   You are stuck. 

[Amit]

@Someone here read it again I said rationality doesn't have limits

[Jacobsrw]

@The observer You are conflating relative truth with ultimate truth. In a relative perspective, rationality is not equal to other dimensions of mind. 

I have no favour for either one, I can just simply see the varying degrees between different states of mind. Not all states of mind are equally efficient in their duty. 

This is obvious even from a non-dual understanding. Some are more efficient in regards to different aspects one is attempting to accomplish. Rationality is superior for sequential, organised logical understanding. Metaphysic philosophy supersedes this when conceptualising reality. It’s not rocket science.

They are equal in an ultimate perspective, but from a relative interpretation this is far from so.

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Jacobsrw

[Someone here]

2 minutes ago, Amit said:

@Someone here read it again I said rationality doesn't have limits

Oh my bad.   I misunderstood the way you phrased it was a bit confusing.  

 

[Nahm]

@Amit It’s thinking. 

[Jacobsrw]

36 minutes ago, Amit said:

@Jacobsrw

Rationality is not just limited to expressing oneself aka language, but it's a process of using intelligence to derive truth, without it, you won't be able to recognize falsehood masquerading as truth.

Nothing could be far from accurate. Ultimate truth can not be understood through the sphere of logic and rationality. Hence why it is not revered in spiritual practice. One is informed to use everything but rationality when awakening to truth. 

You cannot rationalise you’re way to truth, this is just more materialistic delusion compounding itself. You are privileging your mind over your experience.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Jacobsrw

[Amit]

@Nahm everything is imagination, thinking is imagination, rationality is reality, you are rationality

[Nahm]

@Amit More thinking. What seems to be missed between Sam & Leo is present in your experience now, and can’t be articulated much more eloquently than Jacob appears to have already. 

[Someone here]

1 minute ago, Jacobsrw said:

Nothing could be far from accurate. Ultimate truth can not be understood through the sphere of logic and rationality. Hence why it is not revered in spiritual practice. One is informed to use everything but rationality when awakening to truth. 

You cannot rationalise you’re way to truth, this is just more materialistic delusion compounding itself my

Without rationality you couldn't even coin the term (Arationality or post-rationality).  They go together. They need each other. Open your mind to the possibility that rationality and post-rationality both contain some facet of the "truth" (if such a thing can even exist). 

[Preety_India]

35 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Is it rational that rationality have limits or is it irrational? 

You're conflating object with tool. 

You're just strawmanning. 

 

[Jacobsrw]

24 minutes ago, Amit said:

@Someone here read it again I said rationality doesn't have limits

haha of course it does. You can’t rationalise without language. Rationality is completely limited and reliant upon the order of symbols concepts and linguistical formulations. No language = no rationality.

You are confusing the infinitude of consciousness for the finitude of rationality.

@Someone here I feel you have completely misunderstood what I have stated previously. Rationality has a pragmatic use in the relative domain when conceptualising and formulating ideas. Beyond this it is redundant. Awakening is beyond rationality. You cannot understand this without having had a mystical experience.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Jacobsrw

[Someone here]

3 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

You're conflating object with tool. 

You're just strawmanning. 

 

I'm not. I'm pointing out that both need each other. You can't have something without it's opposite. Look at the yin Yang symbol. Without people like Sam Harris you can't have people like Leo lol.! 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Someone here

[Someone here]

6 minutes ago, Jacobsrw said:

 

@Someone here I feel you have completely misunderstood what I have stated previously. Rationality has a pragmatic use in the relative domain when conceptualising and formulating ideas. Beyond this it is redundant. Awakening is beyond rationality. You cannot understand this without having had a mystical experience.

I totally understand that. And that's exactly my point!!

Without having a frame of reference to contrast the two different perspectives how could you know that?  You have to first experience what's it's like to be ignorant deluded rational person in order to be able to transcend.  The first thing that a blind man does after he gets healed from his blindness is throwing away the stick that guided him for lots of years  

[The observer]

19 minutes ago, Jacobsrw said:

@The observer You are conflating relative truth with ultimate truth.

Read again, I said "from an objective pov". Objective = ultimate = absolute. There's no conflation, but you missed the point. To not be objective = to be biased. No explanation of reality is true. There are no relative truths. That's simply your bias.