Libertarian Cringe

[giglio]

Never heard anything from no Bullshit until now from a basic youtube search and never listened to Jordan Peterson. There you go stereotyping again. 

[giglio]

We got to get you guys out of stage  green and thinking from a stage 2, systematic perspective, looking at all views and considering all possibilities.  

[Girzo]

4 minutes ago, giglio said:

Thats definitely not blue, orange or green. 

I think your ability to discern Yellow thinking patterns might be inaccurate by reading too much about Spiral Dynamics itself, and not actually listening to people who are stage Yellow, but talk about somethig different than SD.

Yellow thinking has a certain quality, you can discern it when you know what to look for, but you need to experience it deeply first.

[Girzo]

10 minutes ago, giglio said:

stage 2, systematic perspective, looking at all views and considering all possibilities.  

Looking at all views equally sounds more stage Green.

What Yellow does when confronting libertarianism is understanding libertarian's position, but also not agreeing on it in the slightest, because it's disproven scientifically and seems highly improbable to Yellow considering his sophisticated worldview.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Girzo

[giglio]

Please do share that scientific research that disproves libertarianism.

[TrustTheProcess]

@giglio 

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/05/26/1921628117

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#item-average-wealthy-countries-spend-half-much-per-person-health-u-s-spends

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK154469/

https://www.elc-pa.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/BestInvestment_Full_Report_6.27.11.pdf

 

 

[giglio]

@louhad Completely irrelevant. Says nothing about Libertarian issues. 

[giglio]

I guess the problem is you dont know libertarian positions. Nothing you posted is relevant to libertarian beliefs. What does climate change, health care, and local schools have to do with Libertarians? Most libertarians believe in all those things. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by giglio

[TrustTheProcess]

@giglio

lol, I'mma spell it out:

• free market libertarian economic approaches won't solve climate change. Without regulation, corporations will not hesitate to destroy the planet
• they lead to highly inefficient and dysfunctional public health outcomes. Privatized healthcare is a disaster. 
• they lead to crumbling infrastructure due to lack of centralized organization and planning. 
• they lead to a less educated society and thus lower ceiling for both economic and intellectual growth. 

This is a yellow nightmare. If you can explain how libertarianism can solve these 4 basic problems, I will give you a cookie. 

All evidence points that the market does not in fact "just take care of itself". Centralized rules, regulations, and organization, if implemented properly, are good for society. it is just a matter of making them efficient. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by louhad

[giglio]

I'll easily tackle that.

• Corporations cannot survive without consumers. So if you dont buy their products they go out of business. If everyone stopped eating at McDonalds for a week, it would be so devastating, they would not survive. So you get enough people on your side to not buy their products and they shut down. Also, regulations are weak. They just permit the corporation to pay a fine. They are happy to do that. Better option would be to do away with regulations which would make it easier for individuals or groups to sue corporations and then they go to jail. That threat will stop the corruption. 
• People come from all over the world to get our healthcare instead of wait in lines, or get no care, or substandard care in other countries. 
• States and/or local governments can raise sales taxes to pay for infrastructure if the people vote on it. 
• Generally, people that go to private schools and universities are better educated. 

All done. 

[TrustTheProcess]

[giglio]

Contemplating all the new ways of thinking....

[TrustTheProcess]

@giglio 

Good luck on your journey my friend. <3

[giglio]

@louhad Thank you. You too. Take care. It was fun.

[Extreme Z7]

8 hours ago, giglio said:

Whatever stage the channel is doesn't matter.

You've already lost me.

[giglio]

@Extreme Z7 Yes, I've never heard of the channel. It was just to post and show that Democratic Socialism in America is not the answer. IT shows clips of the meeting. I posted it only because it shows scenes of the chaos in their meetings. It was about the American Democratic Socialists which we can see we from the meeting, we dont want running our country. They can't even function in their own meetings much less run a country. Fortunately you can be at stage green and care about a variety of important issues. Unfortunately Leo and a lot of the crowd thinks Democratic Socialism is the answer. I agree with Leo on 99% of everything except politics. We all care about the same things, we just disagree on the solution. Here is a better video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPLQNUVmq3o

Edited June 4, 2020 by giglio

[Consept]

This politics sub is really sounding out these 'coral' thinkers. I empathise as they're on their journey but I think it's getting to the stage of a massive distraction, we go to the level of discussing whether racism exists or why libertarianism is just unworkable and literally not working right now. I have no solutions but to be aware that these guys will not change positions and will not see nuance but ironically claim they think in systems, which is why they're definitely right ??‍♂️

If you are a 'coral' thinker consider that you don't know what you don't know and having a definite unmovable position as an expert let alone a layman on anything means that you will never actually grow or learn anything. If that is your position ask yourself why you are even on this forum 

[Extreme Z7]

21 minutes ago, giglio said:

@Extreme Z7 Yes, I've never heard of the channel. It was just to post and show that Democratic Socialism in America is not the answer. IT shows clips of the meeting. I posted it only because it shows scenes of the chaos in their meetings. It was about the American Democratic Socialists which we can see we from the meeting, we dont want running our country. They can't even function in their own meetings much less run a country. Fortunately you can be at stage green and care about a variety of important issues. Unfortunately Leo and a lot of the crowd thinks Democratic Socialism is the answer. I agree with Leo on 99% of everything except politics. We all care about the same things, we just disagree on the solution. Here is a better video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPLQNUVmq3o

Stop this obsession with criticizing people. You do not understand Democratic Socialism, let alone pure Stage Green Socialism.

Focus on having a deep interest in learning about Socialism and contemplate how it fits to the puzzle that is reality. You have a danger of getting lost into ideological group-think.

[giglio]

@Extreme Z7 This entire threat is about criticizing libertarianism and you created it. Oh the hypocrisy.,,

[Extreme Z7]

Just now, giglio said:

@Extreme Z7 This entire threat is about criticizing libertarianism and you created it. Oh the hypocrisy.,,

There are 2 main types of criticism: Criticism from above, Criticism from below.

Basically, judging from a higher understanding vs lack of understanding respectively.

Long before starting this thread, I've had an interest in learning about Libertarianism and have exposed myself to many different examples of it. Of course, I could still learn a lot more which is why I also try to moderate how much I criticize it. I'm not 100% ideologically-opposed to Libertarian ideas.