Libertarian Cringe

[giglio]

@louhad I went through stage green about for about 2 years and moved on. Now stage green looks silly looking back. Trump is probably stage red, blue, orange. Biden is probably orange and green. Bernie is green. All sound crazy to me at this point. 

[Girzo]

@giglio you still probably have some homework to do from stage Green and a lot of new material to discover in stage Yellow

[giglio]

@Girzo Just a guess but I'm probably 25% Green still, 50% Yellow, and 25% Turquoise. I believe in saving the environment and recycling of course.  I'm all about inclusion of people and accepting other and many of the other stage green traits. Unlike stage green, I look at all perspectives and sides to an issue. Systematic thinking. Thats yellow. I also engage in daily spiritual practices such as meditation, yoga, contemplation and have reached high states of consciousness through a variety of means. Libertarians are at all stages of spiral dynamics since all libertarianism is, is belief in limited government. It says nothing about personal beliefs, participation in organizations like green peace, humane society, etc. human interactions, sustainable living, spiritual beliefs, humanely ran businesses, etc. Thats all separate from government. I dont need to government to tell me how to live my life. Leo misrepresents libertarians and says things in his videos about them that he knows are not true such as libertarians would live in the woods in a shack. But thats ok. He is not perfect and I understand. I agree with him in 99% of everything else he says and I'm on board with everything else. I bought his course and it was great. All libertarianism is, is reducing government to what is absolutely necessary and privatizing those things that can be so it is not on the backs of the tax payer. Because government wastes money, is corrupt, and bureaucratic. Not saying that some businesses dont have the same problem but you are going to have a corrupt organization regulate a corrupt organization? It doesnt work. The consumer already regulates business. If you dont buy their products, they go out of business. It's a self regulating system. McDonalds is in business because there is demand for unhealthy food by unconscious people. Regulation doesnt work anyway. Businesses will gladly pay a fine for violating a regulation. Without regulation, business is held to a higher standard because if they break laws (not regulation, which is a lower standard) they can be sued and possibly serve jail time. With regulation, penalties are less. I could go on and on but I'll stop there. 

[TrustTheProcess]

 

1 hour ago, giglio said:

@louhad I went through stage green about for about 2 years and moved on. Now stage green looks silly looking back. Trump is probably stage red, blue, orange. Biden is probably orange and green. Bernie is green. All sound crazy to me at this point. 

Lol, if they seem "crazy", you prob don't understand their perspective very well. In stage yellow, you learn to see both the validity and limitations of all perspectives. that's pretty much the defining characteristic. Stage yellow would not share a no bullshit video unironically. 

[giglio]

@louhad Never heard of no bullshit until I randomly searched for the video to show an alternate view. Yellow looks at all sides. 

[TrustTheProcess]

@giglio

43 minutes ago, giglio said:

@louhad Never heard of no bullshit until I randomly searched for the video to show an alternate view. Yellow looks at all sides. 

yessir, yellow looks at all sides, but that video was clearly not a very high quality criticism of green at all. That is analogous to citing a catholic priest's criticism of voltaire. the prob with channels like that is that they conflate sjw culture with Bernie Sanders and green values and don't actually have valid criticisms of the policies of Bernie... this is so misdirected on so many levels. 

48 minutes ago, giglio said:

@Girzo  All libertarianism is, is reducing government to what is absolutely necessary and privatizing those things that can be so it is not on the backs of the tax payer. Because government wastes money, is corrupt, and bureaucratic. 

They problem is you are assuming government inherently is corrupt, bureaucratic and wastes money. This is not the case. This is only true within our current system because our government is orange and functions to serve corporations. That is why we need more Bernies. Bernie's whole campaign was about equality of opportunity and government accountability. we need legislation to hold them accountable with how they use our money. Green is the answer to the excesses of orange that we see... not a different flavor of orange(libertarianism). 

An individual with a stage yellow approach to politics would not be libertarian. It is just an inefficient approach to organizing the economy and it would not help us make sure that everyone has the opportunity to live up to their full potential... which is fundamentally what yellow wants.

We need a strong centralized system to make sure everyone has access to a high quality education, to have strong infrastructure, and strong healthcare system. All can be done and all can be done efficiently. The key is accountability and transparency within the government. the corruption only happens in the shadows. In order for that to happen we need to actually change legislation and elect more green people!

Edited June 4, 2020 by louhad

[Girzo]

19 minutes ago, giglio said:

Never heard of no bullshit until I randomly searched for the video to show an alternate view. Yellow looks at all sides. 

And that was not a greatest decision, because it's not equivalent to what was posted before. Yellow also sorts everything into a natural hierarchy.

25 minutes ago, giglio said:

It says nothing about personal beliefs, participation in organizations like green peace, humane society, etc. human interactions, sustainable living, spiritual beliefs, humanely ran businesses, etc. Thats all separate from government.

This is where we disagree. Government is crucial in all those areas. Judical system, environment planning, business regulation, labour law, freedom of religion, etc. It's all needed.

It's not like we are having philosophical discussion about what a social state can do. This is what a governement does right NOW. And it's an underfunded capitalistic government. What do you want to trim on? A system thinker thinks in flow. If you get rid of those functions of the government something needs to replace them.

32 minutes ago, giglio said:

The consumer already regulates business. If you dont buy their products, they go out of business. It's a self regulating system.

The pipe dream of everything goes well when nobody watches. Sadly, it doesn't work. I mean, yes, the system does self-regulate, but not in a way that a libertarians like to think. The hand of free market doesn't work, because business organizations are, well, organized and have much bigger power leverage than unorganized consumers. The government IS the way consumers/workers unite and regulate business.

Free market's self-regulation depends on everyone having equal access to information, which is just impossible. As a consumer you can't know if your favourite producer of a soda drink is lacing it with lead, and you can't test it because as a single person, even wealthy one, you lack resources to do that to every product. Talk about inefficency. Oh wait, private organizations will test that. If you think bribing government is easy, imagine how hard it must be to bribe a small private organization. Anyway, how do you provide financing to these organizations that do government tasks in the first place? Bribery and lying might be their only income source in such economy.

The way a balance is achieved when government doesn't regulate trade is not by consumers being wise and organizations playing fairly or going out of business leading everyone to prosperity, but through a rapid rise of inequality causing riots and a revolution. History holds many proofs of that behaviour. Government is for keeping a slow pace of change.

1 hour ago, giglio said:

All libertarianism is, is reducing government to what is absolutely necessary

Have you thought that what we have now is what WAS absolutely necessary? And most of it still IS and requires evolution, not throwing out.

You are free to believe what you want, although I recommend you read some actual stage Yellow thinkers like Yuval Noah Harari or Donella Meadows. Or maybe have a few lessons in Green economy by reading Picketty's Capital in the Twenty-First Century.

I am no expert on economics, have read only a handful of books, but I am also not naive to believe getting rid of goverment would do any good. The two libertarian works I have read always critiqued old stage Blue ideas, they never even came close to properly addressing stage Green arguments.

23 minutes ago, louhad said:

An individual with a stage yellow approach to politics would not be libertarian.

I agree, haven't seen one yet. Because Sir, @giglio , you are not using Yellow level thinking when defending libertarian position.

[giglio]

Guess we will just have to agree to disagree because what you are saying is not accurate. Yes, there are orange libertarians but that is just one flavor. Your view is too limited and dogmatic. You are trying to put libertarians in a box and not acknowledging their diversity. Thats stage green or below. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by giglio

[Girzo]

@giglio Nice defence, but it's not gonna fly with us.

Tell me about a single author who is a system thinker and vouches for libertarian ideas. I would like to hear something new, not disproven economic ideas from 40s and 50s.

I mean, you can be stage Yellow libertarian, you just have to propse something in exchange, because saying the problems would solve themselves magically without government's interference is proven not to be true.

Look what's happening in Chile, a dreamland of free market capitalists.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Girzo

[giglio]

@Girzo I'll do better than that. I'll give you a stage turquoise author. L. Ron Gardner

[Girzo]

@giglio Sadly, I have checked and it turns out I only have access to the book where he roast Eckhart Tolle.

But seeing he likes Ayn Rand I don't have big expectations. Ayn Rand is like an anti-thesis of Actualized.org. She wasn't even a good novelist in my opinion.

OSHO-like case I think, not a Stage turquoise political thinker. Woke people get arrogant sometimes thinking that they know the Truth so now all their ideas have to work. That's not how it works. It's similar to people taking psychedelics who happen to have this great experience and think they are now a great person all of sudden. No, they are not.

But hey, I haven't read his commentary, so I leave you the benefit of doubt. Maybe one day I will punch myself in the face for being lazy and not trying harder to read those words of wisdom. Maybe. Maybe not.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Girzo

[TrustTheProcess]

@giglio

http://www.integralworld.net/gardner2.html

 

"I think the last thing Jesus would support is Big Brother and the Nanny State. In fact, I think he would positively rail at the neo-Marxist fascism of Obama and his Democratic brethren. But the Republican politicians—except for Ron Paul and a few others—are no better; in fact, they may be worse because they reek of hypocrisy and thus are wolves in sheep's clothing. Bush Jr. may be the worst president in U.S. history, and he begat Obama, maybe the second worst."

"The typical elite, or “chosen,” liberal, such as Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, or Al Gore, is a product of either Harvard or Yale, and as such, is a hubris-filled, left-wing “social engineer” who believes he is uniquely endowed to inject “progressive” socialist programs into the American “bloodstream.” He is a facile pragmatist who thinks he can, like a master chef, combine Marxism, capitalism, and corporatism into an integral brew, and then spread this concoction around the globe in the form of a “New World Order.” "

"You've been bamboozled by political bullshit. But you're hardly alone. In fact, in 1970, when I studied Marxism at UCSD under the iconic neo-Marxist professor Herbert Marcuse, I too was led to believe that fascism was a “right-wing” phenomenon, the polar opposite of “left-wing” Marxism. But many years later, when I finally read Ayn Rand, my political “savior,” I learned that fascism, like Marxism, is left-wing, and statist, in nature. In other words, fascism and Marxism are two closely related variants of collectivism. If you're interested in political truth, you must read Rand."

... This is literally a blue/orange understanding of government.

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by louhad

[giglio]

Point proven. You cant put libertarians in a box. He talks about spiral dynamics, ken wilber, libertarianism, spiritual advancement and practices and much more. So just because you dont agree with his assessment or anyone else's doesnt mean you can pigeon hole them into your limited view. 

[Girzo]

3 minutes ago, giglio said:

He talks about spiral dynamics, ken wilber

Just talking about something doesn't prove you understand it correctly

This is exactly what stage Orange does when it learns about Spiral Dynamics, it puts itself at the top masquerading as Yellow, because that's what Orange is about, being at the top, being right and bold.

[TrustTheProcess]

@giglio

so here is how spiral dynamics works:

there are no "green people"... there are no "Yellow people".

These are shorthands for "the center of gravity of this individuals world views and value systems across many different facets of life is around green". 

For example: one can be green in interpersonal relationships, blue spiritually, and orange politically.

 

Also, enlightenment can't be mapped on SD 

you can be an enlightened mystic, have valid spiritual teachings and be blue. 

You can talk about SD, Ken wilbur, etc and not really understand systems thinking. 

This dude praising ayn rand, calling obama a "neo marxist", elite establishment puppet, saying jesus would support ron paul... 

This dude is a text-book example of a blue/orange dude interpreting of stage green. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by louhad

[giglio]

No way L. Ron Gardner is stage orange. Good try. 

[Girzo]

@giglio Ok, you have read Ron Gardner and probably a few other authors you agree with.

But have you ever read stage Green economy or politics books like Picketty's Capital for example?

Stage Yellow books? Wilber doesn't count, we have all read him.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Girzo

[giglio]

@giglio Wrong. Stage blue is not universally spiritual. Blue is religious and dogmatic. L. Ron Gardner talks about a kinds of spirituality and enlightenment from a variety of different angles. Thats definitely not blue, orange or green. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by giglio

[TrustTheProcess]

@giglio lol, maybe you, L. Ron Gardner, Ayn Rand, no Bullshit, and Jordan Peterson are just post-stage coral thinkers. 

[Girzo]

@louhad It all goes in a full-circle don't you know it? 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Girzo