Relativity

[The observer]

13 minutes ago, Extreme Z7 said:

But there are still degrees to that.

Degrees? From which point of reference?

16 minutes ago, Extreme Z7 said:

Different people on different levels of the class spectrum have different ideas of what "basic survival" means.

For some people it could mean "keeping my mega-corporation afloat".

I think it doesn't matter what they call it. They don't understand what they're doing anyway. It only matters to us here as we're discussing. People can put different labels on similar things. It doesn't change the things themselves. Basic survival and ego survival are deeply intertwined. It's difficult to separate them, but it's possible. Ordinary unconscious people cannot separate them, but I can, and I hope you and Leo do.

[The observer]

7 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

@The observer I think the yellow approach lies in recognizing how survival and expansion aren't necessarily mutually exclusive but at the same time different concepts indeed.

Is exactly what I'm saying.

[Extreme Z7]

14 minutes ago, The observer said:

I think it doesn't matter what they call it. They don't understand what they're doing anyway. It only matters to us here as we're discussing. People can put different labels on similar things. It doesn't change the things themselves. Basic survival and ego survival are deeply intertwined. It's difficult to separate them, but it's possible. Ordinary unconscious people cannot separate them, but I can, and I hope you and Leo do.

I didn't say they consciously label it all as basic survival.

To primitive cavemen, the emotions that would motivate them to run from a tiger licking its lips and brandishing a dinner fork would be the same emotions that would motivate a CEO who lives his life in the safety of his expensive condo to avoid letting his business go under and destroying his reputation and self-image.

EDIT: It's probably even worse for the CEO because they're more likely to consider suicide as a means of escape.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Extreme Z7

[The observer]

1 minute ago, Extreme Z7 said:

I didn't say they consciously label it all as basic survival.

To primitive cavemen, the emotions that would motivate them to run from a tiger licking its lips and brandishing a dinner fork would be the same emotions that would motivate a CEO who lives his life in the safety of his expensive condo to avoid letting his business go under and destroying his reputation and self-image.

That's a point where all maps stop working. It really depends on our definitions of survival, expansion, self-image, reputation, motivation, emotion, safety, etc...

At that point, if I can say that it's all survival, then I can also say that it's all expansion. Because how do we define either of the concepts? Can we really separate them? Which one is the correct one? Or are they both correct? See, it becomes pointless to even talk and discuss about it because whatever you do is the same as anything else. Right now, we're having a discussion in the relative domain. Bringing down insights from the absolute is helpful, but we still have to make nuanced distinctions based on definitions and assumptions. Otherwise, we shouldn't be even talking.

[Extreme Z7]

13 minutes ago, The observer said:

That's a point where all maps stop working. It really depends on our definitions of survival, expansion, self-image, reputation, motivation, emotion, safety, etc...

At that point, if I can say that it's all survival, then I can also say that it's all expansion. Because how do we define either of the concepts? Can we really separate them? Which one is the correct one? Or are they both correct? See, it becomes pointless to even talk and discuss about it because whatever you do is the same as anything else. Right now, we're having a discussion in the relative domain. Bringing down insights from the absolute is helpful, but we still have to make nuanced distinctions based on definitions and assumptions. Otherwise, we shouldn't be even talking.

I'm not talking from an absolute perspective.

This IS a relative perspective that I'm coming from.

[The observer]

@Extreme Z7 Or, maybe you don't realise that you do/are.

What is the relative insight(s) that you're trying to convey? That everything is survival? If yes, then welcome home.

[Extreme Z7]

42 minutes ago, The observer said:

@Extreme Z7 Or, maybe you don't realise that you do/are.

I don't. I definitely don't.

And going by what Leo's says. 99.99% doesn't mean everything.

I think he's trying to communicate to you just how rare and difficult letting go of survival actually is.

[RendHeaven]

6 hours ago, The observer said:

I think my theory is more accurate and nuanced than pure cynicism.

Survival in action

Sweet, sweet irony

[The observer]

@Extreme Z7 @remember I agree. However, you still miss my point. I'm talking about the motivation in action that makes one strive for more. It's survival in the sense that it moves him away from death, so that's self-preservation. But it's not survival in the sense that he does not even think about death at all at that point, that's self-expansion. The key distinction here is that whether the person is consciously considering death or not. There's no doubt that we all subconsciously don't want to die. But the point still stands, that this is a more nuanced way to understand the problem. Instead of just lumping all human thinking and endeavour into one limiting category, we can make a little distinction and allow both self-preservation and self-expansion to come into the conscious mind. Because if I'm always consciously concerned about whether something is surviving me or not, then I'm never going to expand. To expand effectively, I would have to basically forget the concept of survival (life and death) entirely and move it into the subconscious mind. After all, that's what we all do. I don't know what the denial is about. At least with this perspective, when I put it out there, I know that I'm not using it to survive but rather to expand. Survival alone cannot explain that because it gets you in a strange loop situation. How can I survive my concept (ego) while not surviving it? It just doesn't hold water because the one who's preaching about survival is the one who's doing it and probably denying that he is. I hope you can see the problem. Expansion would be a more honest and accurate way to describe my actions. I can survive my concepts by expansion. No problems there.

@RendHeaven It's expansion. You don't get it. Move on.

Edited May 15, 2020 by The observer

[The observer]

28 minutes ago, remember said:

@The observer well but instead of denying survival there is the possibility to include it - spiraling up means to include the awareness of survival as what it is instead of denying and therefore neglecting it, what ultimately must lead to a dissociated self. 

That's partly what I'm saying. Of course, it's all about integration. But there's more. What is the main motive for any human behaviour other than survival? I mean, after ensuring your basic survival, what motivates you to keep working? If it's just survival, then you would stop striving for more after you have your basic needs met. But no, all of us (maybe most of us, not sure) want to climb up the ladder. Why? Because expansion is an innate desire and a natural component of our being. Death is imaginary, we know that on a subconscious level. That's why we don't concern ourselves with the idea of death all the time, because it's limiting.

Evolution describes that as: survival for the fittest. The fittest here being the most effective ego. The more expansive your ego is, the more chances you have at survival, success, and happiness. Having a more integrated/expansive ego goes hand in hand with your own health and the well-being of your environment. It's nature doing its magic in even more subtle ways.

Edited May 15, 2020 by The observer

[SoonHei]

If your shirt's on inside-out, the entire universe is wearing your shirt except you ?