Growth and betterment of human me, is in vain, because it will die.

[EnlightenmentBlog]

@WHO IS Of course. Do what you want. See where that leads.

[WhatAWondefulWorld]

6 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

@WHO IS Because the growth of a human being will be in benefit of the world even after the death of that human being. So grow for the sake human kind not for yourself.

@WelcometoReality what world? You mean the world which I am imagining? Why? Won't it be gone when I'm done imagining it?

[WHO IS]

50 minutes ago, WhatAWondefulWorld said:

@WelcometoReality what world? You mean the world which I am imagining? Why? Won't it be gone when I'm done imagining it?

The moment you die, the world dies with you, is it not?

[Someone here]

49 minutes ago, WHO IS said:

The moment you die, the world dies with you, is it not?

You can't know for sure. You just assume that or the other. 

[Preetom]

10.7
Prosperity, pleasure, pious deeds…
Enough!
In the dreary forest of the world
the mind finds no rest.
10.8
For how many lifetimes
have you done hard and painful labor
with body, mind and speech?
It is time to stop.

[Member]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

You can't know for sure. You just assume that or the other. 

What makes you think that you will leave this "world" behind? There are only minds experiencing the passage of time which is a matter of perspective.

Do you people really think that it's 2020 and the universe waits for us to evolve further? Things are a lot more stranger.

[zeroISinfinity]

55 minutes ago, Preetom said:

10.7
Prosperity, pleasure, pious deeds…
Enough!
In the dreary forest of the world
the mind finds no rest.
10.8
For how many lifetimes
have you done hard and painful labor
with body, mind and speech?
It is time to stop.

Never. Don't force me to enter Absolute state already having difficulties giving 2 flying fucks about this anyway. 

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Member said:

What makes you think that you will leave this "world" behind? There are only minds experiencing the passage of time which is a matter of perspective.

Do you people really think that it's 2020 and the universe waits for us to evolve further? Things are a lot more stranger.

Reread my post please.  Both possibilities are possible. I remain sceptical about it because I don't have any conclusive evidence at the moment for any of them (objectivism VS solipsism). 

[Nahm]

@WHO IS

What you’re really saying here is “Growth and betterment of human me, is in vain, because of one thought.”

 

[Member]

4 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Reread my post please.  Both possibilities are possible. I remain sceptical about it because I don't have any conclusive evidence at the moment for any of them (objectivism VS solipsism). 

I'm sorry if I sounded too harsh. I'm open to other possibilities as well but since time is not linear (although this is how our brains process reality), it isn't so far-fetched to think that the world doesn't keep going on right from the moment we die. That's common sense. Maybe there's a 4th dimension and we're only eternal in space and time since information cannot be destroyed. At least, that's how I see it, I might be wrong though.

[WHO IS]

17 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@WHO IS

What you’re really saying here is “Growth and betterment of human me, is in vain, because of one thought.”

 

You writing to me this, also took some thoughts. 

[Forestluv]

@WHO IS To me, you seem to construct a lot (as does my mind). I’ve found it helpful to pause and examine the underlying components of the construction. Your OP has months worth of observation, yet it’s tempting for the mind to skim over, ime. 

On 5/13/2020 at 6:56 PM, WHO IS said:

Why should the human me care about growth, overcoming struggles etc., when its destination its death? 

There are many forms and answers here. One way to look at it is impermanence. If something is impermanent, why engage? If my hike up the mountain will be over by tomorrow, why hike up the mountain? If my gf and I will one day be separated through breakup or death, why date? If my vision will be lost, why see? . . . The answer to this depends on the person. One person may answer that there is only Now and to live for the moment. Another person may answer that we have been conditioned through evolution and upbringing to behave as we do. Another person may answer that the idea of an ending is simply a thought and not actuality. Another person may answer that they work to give their children a better life. There is no single, objective, universal answer in a relative context.

Personally, when this question arises in my mind I try to refrain from creating logical constructs. Rather, I prefer to sit in nature and observe, why. The answer is there if my mind becomes empty and clear. I observe the trees, river, wind and birds - they show me why. . . Yet that’s what I resonate with at this point in life. 20 years ago, I would have scoffed at what I write here. And I have no idea what I will resonate with in 20 years from now.

On 5/13/2020 at 6:56 PM, WHO IS said:

In addition when the God me is already perfect? 

There are three components here that are each worth months/years of experimentation, contemplation, realization, integration and embodiment. There could be a dramatic awakening of the whole she-bang, yet this is rare. . . 

The components are: God/me, Perfect/perfect, Now/timeline. Combining them all together creates at least eight combinations of construction. It’s possible to awaken to one singularity, yet again this seems to be quite rare. Setting aside the God/me aspect for a moment, let’s consider the other two components from a generic observer view. Here, I use the standard upper-case for Absolute and lower-case for relative:

1) Some things are imperfect now and some things are imperfect within a timeline of past and future. (This is were 99.9% of the population spend 90% of their mind state).

2) Some things are imperfect now and everything is perfect in a timeline. (This is the idea of “Things are rough now, yet everything will be OK”).

3) Everything is Perfect Now and some things are imperfect within a timeline.

4) Everything is Perfect Now and Everything is Perfect within a timeline. 

Each of these constructs are within Truth. They are not mutually exclusive and there are many more varieties, yet these are the basic building blocks. 

When the mind asks “why do anything if everything is already perfect?”, it is conflating multiple components - for example #1 and #4. If a mind is immersed within construct #1 and has not realized, integrated and embodied #s 2-4, perception will be distorted and cloudy. . . If a mind only knows a cup to be something to drink coffee out of, the mind will be confused when a boxing match is paused when one of the boxers has a broken cup. The mind would need to let go of it’s contraction and attachment to the meaning of “cup” to gain a broader view and clearer understanding. Otherwise, it makes no sense to pause the boxing match since neither boxer needs a cup to drink coffee. It makes no sense. Similarly, a mind would need to let go of meanings for “god” and “perfect” to gain a broader view and clearer understanding.

On 5/13/2020 at 6:56 PM, WHO IS said:

It is self contractionary, all these motivational struggles and growth, it is delusional playing which is all ultimately in vain, because the ego dies. 

I’m not sure if you mean “self contractionary” or “self contradictory” here. . . In terms of “self contractionary”, all constructs are a contraction of the whole (yet can be an expansion relative to a more contracted state). Life is an ongoing balance between contraction and expansion. During meditation or yoga, observe the breath. The out-breath is contraction and the in-breath is expansion. . . In terms of your statement, I suppose we could consider personal growth as expansion. Yet I wouldn’t consider loss of self or death as contraction. I would consider immersion into constructions as contraction.

In terms of “self contradictory”, the mind creates contradictions. If the mind holds onto one side of an opposition, the reciprocal view will appear contradictory. For example: “The journey is the destination”. If we hold onto the idea of a destination as a separate point, how can the journey toward that destination be the destination? This is a contradiction the mind creates. Similarly, the mind can create a thing called a “self” that exists now, yet will not exist in the future. We could then ask “What’s the purpose of self improvement if my self will die?”. . . To me, a deeper question would be “Why create a self construct, that will die?”. This drops the assumption that a “self” is inherently a real thing. Here, the self is a creation. The realness of this self is negatively correlated to the awareness of it’s creation (i.e. as awareness of the self increases, the realness of the self decreases). . . This relates to the God/me component of your original three component question above. Here, I use the terms Self (God) and self (me). As awareness of Self increases, realness of self decreases. . . Confusion arises when there is conflation between Self and self. . . Of course at deeper levels, Self = self - yet I think that is a very big jump. Ime and what I’ve observed in others, it is helpful to first realize a distinction between Self and self. Not an intellectual distinction - a direct experience/realization/integration/embodiment distinction. . . With maturity, interconnections between the two arise and well as the merging as One. 

[Preety_India]

3 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

it is helpful to first realize a distinction between Self and self.

What distinction are you trying to imply here? I didn't get this. Please elaborate this for me. 

 

[Nahm]

@WHO IS

If you were saying a dog means living life is in vein, at least you could point to it, see it, hear it, touch it. There’s no problem with thoughts, only the attachment. Meditation is for this.

[Forestluv]

13 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

What distinction are you trying to imply here? I didn't get this. Please elaborate this for me. 

I’d say this is best expressed through “I AM”. We could consider a series of stages. At first the mind is immersed into the personal identification of “I am”. . . “I am a 40 yr. old plumber who lives in California. I have three kids. I like eating pizza with Budweiser beer”. That kinda thing. The next stage is catching a glimpse of self-dissolution. For example brief moments such as: being in awe of a majestic sky, playing the trumpet, playing soccer, unified in bliss - in which the self and time briefly dissolve. There is only this majestic sky, the trumpet seems to be playing itself etc. Humans love this state and many spend considerable time and energy trying to reach these states. Yet they are just glimpses that don’t stick. They are contextualized into an experience. For example “Wow!! I totally got into the zone playing the trumpet just now. That was amazing. I want more of that”. This is still full-on identification to the self - it was an experience I had. 

The next “stage“ can be much more troublesome for the self construct. Rather than a simple dissolution of the self, there is realization of a higher “I AMness”. For example, there is awareness that I AM the soccer ball, goalie, crowd and grass. In the beginning, this is just a brief glimpse and there can be a range of impact. It can feel liberating and wonderful or it can feel scary and threatening. . . . If a mind sticks with it, awareness of a distinction can arise. . . There “me” yet also this “beyond me”. . . At an immature stage, this can be interpreted and experienced in all sorts of ways. For some minds, it may seem like a psychosis - like multiple selfs. For other minds, it may seem like an “observer” of “my self”. For other minds, a no-self state may serve as an escape from self identity. It can be very peaceful and blissful or there can be anxiety and resistance.

One of the mind’s tendencies is to claim ownership. At early stages, it’s super common to hear things like “I need to work on my ego”. “My ego has been causing me problems, how can I tame it?” Here, a self construct has simply fragmented into “my good self and my bad ego”. . . A bit more advanced would be: “I’ve awakened and I am the observer of the self”. Yet this is still early on as there is ownership of being the “observer” or some “transcendent” awareness. Ime, this is where it gets tricky and subtle. One thing that can provide clarity of distinction is “I AM”. There is  “I AM” and there is whatever comes after “I AM”. This is a super easy way to see self identification, yet it is unpalatable to the self as it threatens the existence of the self. If we can’t add anything to “I AM”, then there is no self construct. Yet this can get quite subtle such as “I am the observer”, “I am awakening”. It gets subtle and tricky because the mind often leaves off the “I am” part, it is an underlying assumption. . . A mature distinction between Self and self arises with repetitive and ongoing detachment and dis-identification - yet this is much easier thought than done. Ime and my observations, it takes a lot of practice. There can be major realizations, yet old patterns generally re-emerged. As well, there is a sense that “this is it”. It takes willingness, curiosity and (right) effort to go deeper and become aware of more subtle forms. 

At a more mature embodied stage, there is clearer awareness of “I AM” vs “I AM xyz”. For me, a couple easy ways to see where I’m at is to notice how attached I am to “me-ness”, how easily can I let go? For example, if Leo replied that this essay is a self-centered distraction and told me to get back to work, would there be an “I” that reacts? How would this “I” react? It may think “I’m not good enough” or “Leo doesn’t know what he’s talking about”. . . How would this feel? The body may feel defensive or embarrassed. What if Leo responded that this essay was pure enlightenment flowing from the Divine. . .would there be and “I” that reacts? It may think “Wow, I’ve made a lot of progress!!”. This may produce a good feeling of self-worth or pride. . . Yet the I AM is prior/transcendent to this. With practice, the distinction gets clearer and clearer. It becomes more obvious to the I AM (Self), when the i am (self) starts adding personal stuff in. Here, the mind may think “The essay that appeared is distractive hogwash from one perspective, yet also brilliant from another perspective.” There is no ownership or personal attachment/identification. Yet thinking this is a surface level. For me, feelings are a deeper indicator. For example, if someone replies that this essay is distractive hogwash, I can easily think “Yes, from one perspective it is”. Yet this is simply putting spiritual lipstick on the personalized idea of “That’s just your opinion”. A deeper indicator is the feeling response. If someone says this is distractive hogwash, does a feeling of defensiveness or unworthiness arise in my body? This would be indicative of personalization/identification/attachment. A more transcendent essence might be a curiosity of another view. Or perhaps laughter arises since the “other person” criticicizing me is actually me! We are both one and I am criticizing myself - which can feel quite comical. 

For me, these constructs helped provide a sense of grounding as I progressed. Yet as we go to deeper levels, both the constructs and progression are imaginations. Since the mind is no longer immersed into self, the mind is fluid and can now observe inter-relationships between Self and self as well as Self = self.

 

[WelcometoReality]

@WhatAWondefulWorld Not the world your imagining. The world beyond your thoughts.

[knowsolution]

On 5/13/2020 at 6:56 PM, WHO IS said:

Why should the human me care about growth, overcoming struggles etc., when its destination its death? 

In addition when the God me is already perfect? 

It is self contractionary, all these motivational struggles and growth, it is delusional playing which is all ultimately in vain, because the ego dies. That sand castle, will crumble.

So, again what's the point to spend time and effort in order to make better a "sinking ship", which will eventually sink?

In addressing why should the human  (fill in the blank) care about growth, overcoming struggles etc, when the destination is death is subjective to whatever we choose. No one besides you can attest God's perfection in you is at it's peak, however, I suspect there is more to your life than what is today.

Perhaps new types of stimulation will grab your interest and give you a positive view of things.

Being present is never boring.