What are our chances to reach enlightenment?

[actualizing25]

Leo is always saying that most of us won't reach enlightenment and that it's really really rare even for seekers to reach that state. Right now Im reading Jed Mckennas Spiritual Enlightenment: The Damnedest Thing and hes saying the same thing. I guess that most of us just dont have these crazy concentration abilities you need to succeed in this work. Furthermore I guess that most of us are lacking this crazy discipline and passion to reach enlightenment.  I just want to be realistic here. Im really not a pessimistic or negative person, just want to objective here.  I've noticed that many people on this forum (including me) are too naive and too "positive" when it comes to enlightenment. There are even many seekers out there who have these crazy concentration abilities, the extreme discipline and a thirst for truth and even they don't succeed.

So what are our chances to get awakened?  With our, I mean all the people, who arent really gifted spiritually or dont have any special abilities you need for this work. If its really that rare to reach enlightement, Im sometimes asking myself, why even pursuing it then? Again I dont want to sound negative or nihilistic here.

 

Thanks for your answers

[Preetom]

@actualizing25

Don't let Leo or anyone else divert you from something you are contemplating towards. Yes enlightenment is very very rare, even among the majority of spiritual circles; but seeing from the other perspective its the surest of surest, the easiest thing ever. Its because you are already it, you're destined to wake up as yourself.

The reason why 99.99999999% of people won't wake up is because-

Phase 1: This message of nonduality will never reach them in a lucid, coherent, logical, rational manner without any woo woo, junks and follies.

Phase 2: Even after the message is reached, most likely it will be denied, grapled with, misunderstood, diverted etc in various degrees by most people. A big number of them will think they've got their version right and majority of spiritual people are stuck here.

Phase 3: Very few will intellectually understand the message of nonduality without any excess fluff. This results in the death of curiousity and doubt towards all forms of 'knowledge'. Meaning, knowledge of things.

Phase 4: the very few who really gets this intellectually now meet the bulk of the work. This is where the rubber meets the road. One has to be emotionally and energetically attuned and focused to realize this Truth. But the habitual mental patterns, corresponding desires and fears and the folly of contradicted personality all work in full force so that one cannot focus properly where it is needed to be.

Phase 5: by overcoming all the phases, the rare lucky ones will drop all last vestiges of ignorance and obstruction and get WOKE.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Preetom

[James123]

@actualizing25 inevitable. If you want do it you do it. If you dont want, you cant. 

[AlphaAbundance]

    Probability is a bit more complex than that, consider maybe

• the probability out of anyone on earth becoming enlightened in this lifetime may be .001%
• probability out of anyone with religious background becoming enlightened in this lifetime may be .0001%
• probability of anyone on this forum becoming enlightened in this lifetime may be 40% (might even be higher) but this just means out of everyone in this forum we can predict 40% will be enlightened in their lifetime.
• probability of those that contemplate, meditate, self-inquire and explore psychedelics for atleast 5 years seriously might be 50% (and for those that do it for atleast 30 years then the probability may be 95%)

    I'm really just making somewhat educated guesses (and pulling these numbers out of my ass) And with people talking about the great awakening, some probabilities might even be higher. The point being probability is a concept that is often (or even always) based on extrapolation of past data and may not even be able to be applied here.

   Regardless, from what I understand you are trying to say, anyone with high concentration, discipline and thirst for truth would have to be more likely to be enlightened. However, those traits can be developed and are probably a part of anyone's path of becoming enlightened.

      Furthermore, some say that enlightenment is so valuable that even if the "probability" is not high it is still worth it. And it is not like there is zero results until some massive moment of enlightenment (unless in extremely rare cases I guess).

     The developments in consciousness, mindfulness and awareness are palpable and beneficial even if you haven't became enlightened. And honestly if your not getting some results before some big enlightenment moment you might want to question whether this is all bullshit.

Edited May 3, 2020 by AlphaAbundance

[Javfly33]

1 hour ago, Dand said:

Most people won't reach it because they aren't really serious about Truth. They're more serious about getting sex, money, power, validation and or reducing suffering. Truth doesn't care about that, Truth stands as it is and very very few people want Truth for Truth's sake. There's usually alterior egoic motives that hold people back and it can be really difficult to push through and put yourself in positions your ego really doesn't want to be in. It requires making yourself uncomfortable, questioning yourself repeatedly, destroying your sense of self repeatedly and being open to being totally wrong in every way despite everything you've done so far.

Most people simply can't do that, many of the ones who can do it wrong and get stuck somewhere for the rest of their lives. Eg Peter Ralston and Sadhguru are ideological about psychedelics, Joe Rogan is ideological about it being 'impossible to know truth', Neil deGrasse Tyson is ideological about there being no God, etc. 

If you're willing to find Truth for the sake of Truth and for no other reason, then you're ahead of most people. Just being on this forum you're ahead of most people. Even if you don't become the most enlightened, you'll still likely make progress. If you wanna give up then go for it, nothing changes, but I'd advise against it if you want to live life more consciously  

I find it somewhat amusing what you guys keep saying about "You must seek Truth for truth´s sake! If not is not going to work out!"

If anybody could get a vial of any pleasurable drug 24/7 that´d would put you happy and content in the present moment, there wouldn´t any "Truth seekers". NONE.

Now I do recognize there are people that definetely show more passion or curiosity for what reality really is. Hell even me I remember when I was little kid I was asking deep metaphisical questions that´d make my parents laugh or feel weird. Like "what happens when I am dead"...etc. But everybody here who is seeking enlightment is seeking Happiness/Joy/Love/Fullfilment. Let´s not kid ourselves. The "passion" for Truth even if it´s there, it´s secondary. 

You guys are self-deluding yourself thinking you are saints that only care about truth. You care about Truth because the Illusion doesn´t work for you. Not because you are deeply in love with truth. In fact truth is death for ego. So you are going after it only when you have realized until exhaustion that Illusion could never work.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Javfly33

[Aaron p]

I believe I will greatly increase my odds 

[Haumea2018]

3 hours ago, actualizing25 said:

So what are our chances to get awakened?  With our, I mean all the people, who arent really gifted spiritually or dont have any special abilities you need for this work. If its really that rare to reach enlightement, Im sometimes asking myself, why even pursuing it then? Again I dont want to sound negative or nihilistic here.

Looking at it from a statistical POV is not something I would recommend doing.

It's just the wrong approach.

Anyone who really wants it can get enlightened.

You don't need special powers of concentration.

Just a willingness to be as honest with yourself as possible, even though it's uncomfortable.

The reason many people don't get enlightened is that they are unwilling to be honest with themselves.

It's too painful.

If you're not willing to experience that, chances aren't good.

Here's a great spiritual technique: ask people closest to you everything they think is "wrong" with you, and then take them seriously.

How many people are willing to do that? Most will run like hell from it.

Not many want to face the truth about themselves.

So it's always a choice.  It's not some mechanical thing that you need to be exceptional at, that's just ego nonsense.

[Nahm]

@actualizing25

Truth isn’t reached per se, it’s uncovered. It’s 100% up to you now, and it’s always now. 

[RevoCulture]

@actualizing25   A truly celebrated moment in a young seeker's life is when they discover the mechanisms behind why enlightenment:

• is a process more than a desitnation
• that it is inevitable
• journey is the destination

In addition I have enjoyed insights into the immensity of what enlightenment journey could entail.  If you consider that and evolving consciousness could mean successful consciousness as a human, then as a collective, then as a planet, then as a star, then as a solar system, galaxy, universe and everything in between those positions.  The immensity of awakening or enlightenment is humbling. 

With physics firming up the idea that time is an emergent property we know that all already is. 

Keep working this, the only way to move through it is to engage with it.  No shortcut.  You will be amazed at the wonderful release of pressure felt as the concept of enlightenment shifts and a well earned humility takes root and begins growing.

No right or wrong in the path, only what needs to be engaged and embodied. 

Journey strong!

[VeganAwake]

The recognition that there is nothing to find because nothing is missing and there's no one to find it anyways ❤

Edited May 4, 2020 by VeganAwake

[RevoCulture]

@VeganAwake Curious how you interpret your own participation?  

If you truly believed your position you wouldn't be participating by continuously offering something.  If you respected the premise of your position you wouldn't be violating it constantly.  It is hard to appreciate what you are contributing when there is such a blatant violation of its principles.  Seriously.  Stand by your principles or include that you dont believe in what you are saying enough to follow it tenants.  That would make your offerings somewhat palatable. 

Cheers...

[RevoCulture]

@VeganAwake  For your consideration...

Everything is nothing and nothing is everything.  It isn't that your position is without merit, it is simply falls short in its development.  You have an excellent line of insight running but it needs additional refinement to be more inclusive of reality as it is, how everything is nothing and nothing is everything.  Your presentation is easily shredded, your actions do that for you.  To be honest, it is a rather lazy position to consistently hang your beliefs on. 

If you were to carry your comprehension further, develop it, push your self to find intricacies that exist within the framework, you would be able to offer you insight in a more useful and credible fashion.   Offerings that supported your position but acknowledge the inner workings at the same time.  Everything experienced my friend is real even if it is an illusion, an illusion is real.  A lie is truth in the fact that it is an honest misrepresentation.  The game is more twisted and wonderfully imaginative than you are making space for. 

I believe I only share this because you seem to hold more.. Capable of more..

Who am I to say such things?  No body, I don't have answers only biased interpretations.   I am just as full of bs as the next.. You get to decide.. 

[Haumea2018]

5 hours ago, Dutch guy said:

don't know what you mean. I intellectually can understand somewhat that I don't exist and it will take some mourning I understand, but I really think I want to know the truth. And I can't access it. I'll probable pick fruits from my practices, but I don't think I will get there. Maybe psychedelics will give me a peek.

Observe what you cling to.

The "I" is just the clinging.

Human psychology is dual.

There's what you "cling to" - in other words identify with - and what you resist, reject, disown and project.

You have to KNOW YOURSELF.

You have to know all your horseshit defense mechanisms.

Only then can you dare to relax your defenses in order to liberate yourself.

"The truth" is there underneath the covering of the illusion.

And "clinging" is what generates the illusion.

Look at what you despise, hate, reject in others.

That's an easy place to start.  When you can accept that what you reject in others is also part of you, you can make great progress to liberation.

[wavydude]

12 hours ago, AlphaAbundance said:

Probability is a bit more complex than that, consider maybe

• the probability out of anyone on earth becoming enlightened in this lifetime may be .001%
• probability out of anyone with religious background becoming enlightened in this lifetime may be .0001%
• probability of anyone on this forum becoming enlightened in this lifetime may be 40% (might even be higher) but this just means out of everyone in this forum we can predict 40% will be enlightened in their lifetime.
• probability of those that contemplate, meditate, self-inquire and explore psychedelics for atleast 5 years seriously might be 50% (and for those that do it for atleast 30 years then the probability may be 95%)

Probability of these numbers being bullshit might be 100%

[VeganAwake]

@RevoCulture There isn't a goal or agenda here. If it's resonated with or not so be it. This is the dropping of concepts, not the gaining..

Its unknowing!!

❤

[RedLine]

Chances??

 

It is not a stadistically stuff. It is about willness.

[iamme]

Maybe we should stop imagining enlightenment as something to be reached and instead focus on being enlightened now, as best we can. All of us who have understanding of this, know that the future is always in the future. What about just focus on being now and don't get distracted.

[Forestluv]

On 5/3/2020 at 4:38 PM, Javfly33 said:

 

If anybody could get a vial of any pleasurable drug 24/7 that´d would put you happy and content in the present moment, there wouldn´t any "Truth seekers". NONE.

The mind likes to extrapolate it’s own mindset as universal. For example, if a mind values happiness and contentment above all, it will extrapolate that as being universal to all minds. This is a block toward mind expansion. . . Your above statement is not universally true. My mind does not place happiness and contentment above all else. I have voluntarily entered spaces that were terrifying and painful for realization of what is. And then I went back for more. . . At the deeper levels, one doesn’t get to decide what will be revealed on the other side of the door. This is a facet of surrender.

I wouldn’t consume a vial of permanent 24/7 happiness and contentment. For me, that would be a contraction and I am much more oriented toward expansion. I want it all, including (be not limited to) happiness and contentment. 

[Javfly33]

8 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

The mind likes to extrapolate it’s own mindset as universal. For example, if a mind values happiness and contentment above all, it will extrapolate that as being universal to all minds. This is a block toward mind expansion. . . Your above statement is not universally true. My mind does not place happiness and contentment above all else. I have voluntarily entered spaces that were terrifying and painful for realization of what is. And then I went back for more. . . At the deeper levels, one doesn’t get to decide what will be revealed on the other side of the door. This is a facet of surrender.

I wouldn’t consume a vial of permanent 24/7 happiness and contentment. For me, that would be a contraction and I am much more oriented toward expansion. I want it all, including (be not limited to) happiness and contentment. 

I get what you are saying, but as the other user which replied me, you are currently thinking what would you do from a brain/mind that is currently balanced and values interesting, special, profound things, apart from happiness or pleasure. That's also my "kind of mind". Although I am not sure if I not so much to enter "terryfing and painful places" just for pure curiosity, so you probably have a mind less 'hedonistic' and more explotatory than mine. But this doesn't mean that I'm automatically projecting, thought. I'm very confident my scenario would be correct in both of us. If you would be in a state where your mind is constantly happy, relaxed, and content, there wouldn't be any motivation to seek anything, because for what when the present moment is already full? I'm not asking you to choose whether to pick between being on the drug or being in a notmal state, I'm saying you are already in the state of mind of the drug, always.

In this scenario the mind literally wouldn't have any questions of 'coulds', 'whatIfs', 'Iwonderhow'..etc The kind of attitude and questions that represent trascendent contemplation and exploration.

Unless what you are saying is that your drive is coming from something deeper than the mind. (Like that it would be coming from "the heart")

I'm open to that but I have to be honest, I have known a couple of addicts to certain hard drug who I would consider quite passionate for reality, art,( not the stereotypical junky that doesn't care about anything but have fun) ...etc yet when doing his drug of choice just be totally content doing simple activities and not seek any kind of profound things for YEARS. Seeing that had grown me quite skeptick. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Javfly33

[Forestluv]

On 5/5/2020 at 3:29 AM, Javfly33 said:

But this doesn't mean that I'm automatically projecting, thought. I'm very confident my scenario would be correct in both of us. If you would be in a state where your mind is constantly happy, relaxed, and content, there wouldn't be any motivation to seek anything, because for what when the present moment is already full? I'm not asking you to choose whether to pick between being on the drug or being in a notmal state, I'm saying you are already in the state of mind of the drug, always.

You seem to associate a substance-induced state as being desirable and pleasant, while a nonsubstance-induced state is undesirable and unpleasant. Ime, that dynamic can exist, yet existence need not be limited to that dynamic.

You seem to define “happy, relaxed and content” as being without any motivation to seek anything because the moment is already full. If we define happiness as the absence of seeking energy and a sense that the moment is full, we contract to a relative domain. It’s a wonderful domain of which many humans fantasize about and seek. 

I’ve experienced deep sadness in which there was no seeking energy for anything. The moment was full. By your definition, we would categorize this sadness as “happiness”. There have been a few times I’ve tried to express such sadness to another and their reaction is to “help” me to get out of the sadness, back into happiness. They are the ones that are seeking. I try to tell them, I don’t want to alter or escape from what is arising, yet they don’t understand. When an essence enters - freedom is allowing that essence to enter without grasping or pushing away. To sit and have tea with the fear, joy or sadness - and when that essence leaves, to let it go like a free butterfly fluttering away.

Seeking the cessation of seeking is itself a form of seeking.