What is the fundamental nature of reality?

[The observer]

12 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Logic is a bunch of abstract rules which describes the fundamental structure of our reality as we observe it. 

It is, and it does. Yet, the mind assumes/believes that logic is all there is and that it is the most accurate tool for describing reality. Logic is not false. Nobody is saying that. Of course, it has a certain value. Yet, it has certain limitations. The ultimate realisations are not in the domain of logic. They're beyond it. They're post-rational.

[The observer]

12 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I'm not sure why  should the fact that "1+1 =2" is a "thought" make it less valid or anything of that sort. Thoughts are simply descriptions of reality. Some thoughts are valid and some are not..

You're right. Again, the validity of thoughts is irrelevant to us here. It's about recognition of thoughts as thoughts, not as true or false. The sunset you've witnessed is irrelevant to the stories you tell about it. The former is actual, while the latter is conceptual/virtual. Of course, I could tell true or false stories about that beautiful sunset. That does not change the sunset itself. The stories are irrelevant to the actual sunset. That's the key point.

18 minutes ago, Someone here said:

To the degree they accurately describe the actual world around us.  1+1=2 is a valid thought which means if you go out in the world and put one orange aside of another orange you get two oranges and it can't be otherwise!.

Of course. When we need to be practical in the real world, we use logic and maths as a tool. That's beneficial, wonderful. Yet, notice how the mind tends to overuse logic and make it universal. The mind goes on to apply logic onto everything. But logic is limited and cannot be used everywhere. For example; How do you explain emotions rationally? A "chemicals in the brain" narrative can be practical and can be of value. Yet, how does the phenomenon occur, I mean like really, really how? How is it possible for "chemicals in the brain" to exist in the first place? And how is it possible that there are correlations between the chemicals and perception? Why are there correlations? How does "matter" affect perception? Is it really logical? Or do we merely think so to demystifiy reality?

[Nahm]

@Someone here

Ever imagine something when you were a kid, that these days you don’t remember?

 

 

 

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, The observer said:

It is, and it does. Yet, the mind assumes/believes that logic is all there is and that it is the most accurate tool for describing reality. Logic is not false. Nobody is saying that. Of course, it has a certain value. Yet, it has certain limitations. The ultimate realisations are not in the domain of logic. They're beyond it. They're post-rational.

And what are these tools other than empirical experiments and logic "intellectual faculties"? 

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, The observer said:

You're right. Again, the validity of thoughts is irrelevant to us here. It's about recognition of thoughts as thoughts, not as true or false. The sunset you've witnessed is irrelevant to the stories you tell about it. The former is actual, while the latter is conceptual/virtual. Of course, I could tell true or false stories about that beautiful sunset. That does not change the sunset itself. The stories are irrelevant to the actual sunset. That's the key point.

Well yeah that's the key point. Our description is irrelevant to the actual reality in the sense that it is some way and doesn't care about our descriptions. You might describe it in a false way but that won't change anything in the outside. If tomorrow everyone started to believe that the sun doesn't exist it will remain there and won't just disappear. If tomorrow I started believing the world is my imagination that won't change the appearance that it's not. 

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, The observer said:

Of course. When we need to be practical in the real world, we use logic and maths as a tool. That's beneficial, wonderful. Yet, notice how the mind tends to overuse logic and make it universal. The mind goes on to apply logic onto everything. But logic is limited and cannot be used everywhere. For example; How do you explain emotions rationally? A "chemicals in the brain" narrative can be practical and can be of value. Yet, how does the phenomenon occur, I mean like really, really how? How is it possible for "chemicals in the brain" to exist in the first place? And how is it possible that there are correlations between the chemicals and perception? Why are there correlations? How does "matter" affect perception? Is it really logical? Or do we merely think so to demystifiy reality?

I obviously have no clue how anything work in the deepest sense possible. However what I can be sure of is that these atoms and matter are there and they do behave in a certain way that is predictable and consistent which means they follow certain rules.. Logical rules like causality and physical rules like conversation of energy and matter etc.. Why is it this way?  How is it possible that it works this way?  I just don't know! But just because I don't know and it's fascinating doesn't mean it's not this way! 

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

@Someone here

Ever imagine something when you were a kid, that these days you don’t remember?

 

 

 

Sorry I tried to understand your question but I couldn't.  Could you elaborate on it pls.? 

[Heaven]

21 hours ago, Romer02 said:

@Heaven how fascinating is that direct experience? Also how long would it take to achieve on average? 

No words can describe it but I’ll try..

It feels like life itself. The source of all being. Like a fire inside of u.Thunder hit u inside out but some how in a positive way. Lol. When u get it u will definitely know. 

How long in average it will take?in MPOV it’s not the right question and I’ll explain.

You are always in some state. The more conscious you are and the more focused your mind is the more possibilities to experience it and maintain this state.

U can experience with psychedelic and get a glimpse of that.(basically what the psychedelics are doing is to raise temporary your level of consciousness)

Hope it helped. I’m not an expert by any means. But you’re in the right path.❤️

 

[The observer]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

And what are these tools other than empirical experiments and logic "intellectual faculties"? 

They're all empirical and only you can verify the things we're saying. Meditation. Self-inquiry. Yoga. Shamanic Breathing. Mindfulness. Psychedelics. Strong Determination Sittings. Retreats. Silence. Therapy. Psychoanalysis. Shadow Work and Emotional Healing. Some people even say sex is a spiritual practice. Contemplation with a radically open-mind.

The point of all these practices is to get you to see beyond the assumptions that you already have about reality. The default assumptions are usually taken as absolute truths. That's the problem; is to mistake a part of the whole picture for the whole picture. It's like mistaking the Eiffel tower for France.

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

If tomorrow everyone started to believe that the sun doesn't exist it will remain there and won't just disappear. If tomorrow I started believing the world is my imagination that won't change the appearance that it's not. 

See. Again, the mind making a sleight of hand, overlaying perception with thought;

tomorrow (thought)

everyone (thought)

believe (thought)

the sun (thought)

existence (thought)

Notice that the thought is a context (perception) that creates a content (appearance) within it, which then gets confused for the context. It's like the Treachery of Images; "This is not a pipe".

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

I obviously have no clue how anything work in the deepest sense possible. However what I can be sure of is that these atoms and matter are there and they do behave in a certain way that is predictable and consistent which means they follow certain rules.. Logical rules like causality and physical rules like conversation of energy and matter etc.. Why is it this way?  How is it possible that it works this way?  I just don't know! But just because I don't know and it's fascinating doesn't mean it's not this way! 

Imagine travelling in a car to another state in America. On the way, you will see signs for directions. Instead of recognising the signs as just signs, the traveller thinks that they are the destinations themselves and so he drives his car into the signs. To bring the point back home; when you go out and see the sun, there is a perception of an appearance. Then, thought interferes. The mind creates stories, such as; "The sun is shining." "The sun is beautiful." "The sun is evident." "The sun exists whether I think it does or not." etc. . . Notice that thought is unnecessary here. You can have a perception of the sun without thoughts. Thinking using logic is a practical pragmatic tool. However, the mind is not usually explicit about this. The mind confuses the finger that's pointing to the moon for the moon itself. So, if you want to progress with this work, instead of "thinking" and getting lost in the content of thought, aim at observing thoughts like clouds passing in the sky. Watch the clouds and label them as clouds until the sky is clear. This implies meditating (or any other practice) to increase your awareness. When your mind is still, i.e. not confusing thoughts for reality, you will be able to see reality as it is, i.e. as reality, and thoughts as they are, i.e as thoughts. You might wonder; "Well, I already can distinguish between the two." "What does this have to do with understanding reality in the deepest ways possible?" "It sounds like basic stuff." etc. . . And that's fine. You can return back to using logic and see if it can get you to the deepest conclusions. If whatever logic yields for you satisfies you, then good. If you're not satisfied and still looking for answers, then we have given you some tools for finding out for yourself. And of course, this is only the beginning, but you gotta start somewhere. If you want to read a book, then here's my suggestion: "Spiritual Enlightenment : The Damnedest Thing" for Jed McKenna. It can get you to realise the Absolute Truth, which is a great start for deeper realisations. A lot of people would suggest "The Power Of Now" for Eckhart Tolle. It's good too, but I feel that Jed's style would resonate with you better.

Edited May 5, 2020 by The observer

[Someone here]

18 hours ago, The observer said:

They're all empirical and only you can verify the things we're saying. Meditation. Self-inquiry. Yoga. Shamanic Breathing. Mindfulness. Psychedelics. Strong Determination Sittings. Retreats. Silence. Therapy. Psychoanalysis. Shadow Work and Emotional Healing. Some people even say sex is a spiritual practice. Contemplation with a radically open-mind.

The point of all these practices is to get you to see beyond the assumptions that you already have about reality. The default assumptions are usually taken as absolute truths. That's the problem; is to mistake a part of the whole picture for the whole picture. It's like mistaking the Eiffel tower for France.

See. Again, the mind making a sleight of hand, overlaying perception with thought;

tomorrow (thought)

everyone (thought)

believe (thought)

the sun (thought)

existence (thought)

Notice that the thought is a context (perception) that creates a content (appearance) within it, which then gets confused for the context. It's like the Treachery of Images; "This is not a pipe".

Imagine travelling in a car to another state in America. On the way, you will see signs for directions. Instead of recognising the signs as just signs, the traveller thinks that they are the destinations themselves and so he drives his car into the signs. To bring the point back home; when you go out and see the sun, there is a perception of an appearance. Then, thought interferes. The mind creates stories, such as; "The sun is shining." "The sun is beautiful." "The sun is evident." "The sun exists whether I think it does or not." etc. . . Notice that thought is unnecessary here. You can have a perception of the sun without thoughts. Thinking using logic is a practical pragmatic tool. However, the mind is not usually explicit about this. The mind confuses the finger that's pointing to the moon for the moon itself. So, if you want to progress with this work, instead of "thinking" and getting lost in the content of thought, aim at observing thoughts like clouds passing in the sky. Watch the clouds and label them as clouds until the sky is clear. This implies meditating (or any other practice) to increase your awareness. When your mind is still, i.e. not confusing thoughts for reality, you will be able to see reality as it is, i.e. as reality, and thoughts as they are, i.e as thoughts. You might wonder; "Well, I already can distinguish between the two." "What does this have to do with understanding reality in the deepest ways possible?" "It sounds like basic stuff." etc. . . And that's fine. You can return back to using logic and see if it can get you to the deepest conclusions. If whatever logic yields for you satisfies you, then good. If you're not satisfied and still looking for answers, then we have given you some tools for finding out for yourself. And of course, this is only the beginning, but you gotta start somewhere. If you want to read a book, then here's my suggestion: "Spiritual Enlightenment : The Damnedest Thing" for Jed McKenna. It can get you to realise the Absolute Truth, which is a great start for deeper realisations. A lot of people would suggest "The Power Of Now" for Eckhart Tolle. It's good too, but I feel that Jed's style would resonate with you better.

Thank you. Will try to consider your points. I might be missing something. Your key points if I'm getting it right is that I'm lost in the intellectual level when there is greater levels beyond the mind that I'm missing. I don't know how to reach these levels yet but will try some of your methods even tho not sure about psychedelics. 

Will take a look at those books as well. 

 

[James123]

On 5/4/2020 at 11:15 AM, Someone here said:

How can "consciousness" be the substance of reality?  I'm having a hard time figuring this one out.  Consciousness is apparently a quality that certain creatures have like humans and animals.. A rock ain't conscious for example.. It doesn't see or touch or smell or even know that it exists. Unless if you redefine the word "consciousness" to mean something else than what it was originally intended for. This "nothing" or whatever but i don't see any "nothing" here.. All i see are limited distinct things!

Logic works for duality. In order to understand the truth, you must question how can be the words represents truth? Because they are made by human being. You have to go completely opposite (consideration of not thinking or no words) direction when you are stuck at logic. 

[Someone here]

16 minutes ago, James123 said:

Logic works for duality. In order to understand the truth, you must question how can be the words represents truth? Because they are made by human being. You have to go completely opposite (consideration of not thinking or no words) direction when you are stuck at logic. 

Because the world is dualistic? 

Language and logic describe the world. And because we live in a dualistic world language and logic are dualistic. 

[James123]

31 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Because the world is dualistic? 

Language and logic describe the world. And because we live in a dualistic world language and logic are dualistic.

World, dual, words, me , you, car, chair is all dual. If separation is existed, it is duality. In order to understand consciousness, you have to know, experience of not thinking moments. Whatever you learn that is learned by language (thinking). Consciousness is beyond the language. It is nothing and at the same time everything. Real and not real at the same time. Exist and not exist at the same time. Can you explain that with language? 

Edited May 6, 2020 by James123

[Someone here]

39 minutes ago, James123 said:

World, dual, words, me , you, car, chair is all dual. If separation is existed, it is duality. In order to understand consciousness, you have to know, experience of not thinking moments. Whatever you learn that is learned by language (thinking). Consciousness is beyond the language. It is nothing and at the same time everything. Real and not real at the same time. Exist and not exist at the same time. Can you explain that with language? 

I can't explain that with language because language is dualistic and it is dualistic because it's a description of reality and reality is dualistic. An orange is an orange and a rock is a rock  .i can sit there and pretend that there is no duality between oranges and rocks for the rest of my life but still if I eat the orange it will nourish me and if I eat the rock it will kill me!.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Someone here

[James123]

7 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I can't explain that with language because language is dualistic and it is dualistic because it's a description of reality and reality is dualistic. An orange is an orange and a rock is a rock  .i can sit there and pretend that there is no duality between oranges and rocks for the rest of my life but still if I eat the orange it will nourish me and if I eat the rock it will kill me!.

There is no differences. You damn right. You cant do it, because you think you are exist and in the body. When you have direct experience with non duality, you realize that nothing in the body and whatever you seeing at the moment is you and exist as nothing. Lol. 
 

You exist as a thought. If you stop thinking you will die and you have no differences than the your tv you seeing now. All is one

Edited May 6, 2020 by James123

[Someone here]

18 minutes ago, James123 said:

There is no differences. You damn right. You cant do it, because you think you are exist and in the body. When you have direct experience with non duality, you realize that nothing in the body and whatever you seeing at the moment is you and exist as nothing. Lol. 
 

You exist as a thought. If you stop thinking you will die and you have no differences than the your tv you seeing now. All is one

You are asking me here to go against not just common sense and logic but even direct experience. I'm not sure which  "direct experience" are you referring to?  I'm having direct experience of reality right now.. I feel my body and I see the world around me.. It consists of clearly distinct objects like TV chairs tables rocks animals people cars etc.

What do you mean if I stopped thinking I will die?  I clearly don't think while deep sleeping but I'm still alive and then i wake up normally! 

How do you know that "all is one"?  Just how did you arrive at that conclusion?  

Edited May 6, 2020 by Someone here

[James123]

@Someone here brother, are you new about Topic of consciousness? 

[Someone here]

7 minutes ago, James123 said:

@Someone here brother, are you new about Topic of consciousness? 

No I'm watching Leo's videos for two years now. But I'm not convinced of everything he says. I listen to rupert Spira and mooji as well.. I don't accept everything spiritual people say but I don't reject it all either. I take what resonates with me.  It's important to notice that the purpose of this topic is not to validate nonduality. I'm not begging the question here. I'm interested in finding the truth whatever it is.

7 minutes ago, James123 said:

@Someone here brother, are you new about Topic of consciousness?. 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Someone here

[James123]

14 minutes ago, Someone here said:

You are asking me here to go against not just common sense and logic but even direct experience. I'm not sure which  "direct experience" are you referring to?  I'm having direct experience of reality right now.. I feel my body and I see the world around me.. It consists of clearly distinct objects like TV chairs tables rocks animals people cars etc.

What do you mean if I stopped thinking I will die?  I clearly don't think while deep sleeping but I'm still alive and then i wake up normally! 

How do you know that "all is one"?  Just how did you arrive at that conclusion?  

you separate your body parts and brain, you won’t be able to recognize yourself. Are you leg, arm, head , brain? Where are you? Additionally, if you tell me that you are in the brain and the body. Take this example, just touch your right hand and feel it, at that moment did you feel your left foot? No. If you are the body you must feel entire body. You are the thing that aware of the body. Why dont you never feel your liver or tooth during the healthy times? You just feel it when you have pain. If you are the body you must feel everything in the body. When you sit on the chair and think about something completely Differently at that moment, how come you cant feel or forget to feel about chair ? Brain is still is getting signals from your ass or legs,  because you are still sitting. But you are not aware and dont feel the signals in the brain. So where are you in the brain? You just learned that you are in the brain and seeing from the eyes. NO. YOU ARE THE CONSCIOUSNESS ITSELF SEEING ITSELF. Thats why all is one. Nothing is real except you. Brain function or purpose of the eye, all is created By you and learned by people. 

[James123]

8 minutes ago, Someone here said:

y. I'm not begging the question here. I'm interested in finding the truth whatever it is.

You are me, begging can not be taking into account. At least you are trying to learn the truth . You are it. You will discover yourself sooner or later.