What is the fundamental nature of reality?

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I can't show you.

But a psychedelic can

Well I didn't try psychedelic but from hearing other people's stories it gives them mystical experiences and they start hallucinating stuff and then the chemical goes off and they are back to the normal perception of life.  I don't know why should we think  a hallucinating drug can give us explanation of the nature of reality. 

[Preetom]

25 minutes ago, Someone here said:

So far my contemplating led me to the following :

1- the "real world" in the waking state is no different from the dream's world in terms of the apparent phenomenon. It's just that the latter is more consistent and more logical. 

2- the substance of reality is completely unknown. Could be matter or imagination but that doesn't say anything about what it actually is!, 

3 - also whether it be this or that I still don't know why anything exists at all whether it's matter energy awareness God etc 

Attaboy. Keep contemplating.

1) the more 'consistency' and 'logic' is just another more features of the dream. Just like some dreams are fleeting, vague while some are colorful and vivid.

2) the substance is nothing. Its really nothing and the mechanism that is adopted for appearance is imagination/abstraction. Something seeming but not really there.

3) forgetfulness and self delusion is the name of the game. The very fabric of dream; the engine that makes it possible to appear in the 1st place is forgetfulness, self delusion and denial of this being the case.

[Someone here]

How do you know this?   How is it possible that nothing imagines something?  If reality is absolute nothing it should be nothing forever and we can't be here even as an imagination. 0+0+0+0+0+0 to infinity is still zero!  If you have nothing at all you can't have something. If I want you to make me a meal I have to give you some raw material "food" to make thr meal. But if I give you "nothing" you won't be able to turn that nothing into food! 

What does it mean "seems there but not really there".. It's either there or it's not.. It might be a mirage or a dream like but that doesn't change the fact that something of any kind is just there. Hope that makes sense. 

[Someone here]

I hope to find answers to my questions!

[Someone here]

18 minutes ago, Meta-Man said:

 

 

These are the paradoxes of non-duality. Nothing = Everything.

Like a hologram, it appears to be, yet is nothing.

These answers aren’t found on the level of mind/thinking/concepts. This is why only you can discover the Truth. Nobody can give it to you. All we can do is give pointers. And we can only point so much.

Thanks for trying to clarify but I still didn't get my answers. Nothing is not everything in my simple logic.. Nothing is not anything it's just a self contradictory concept. And again I'm open to the possibility that reality might be not what we think it is.. We might be living in a simulation.. I might be dreaming right now etc but that only means  that the substance of reality is not what we think it is and does not mean it's "unreal". The notion of reality being a total illusion just doesn't make any sense.

So far my own investigation can't go beyond what is conventionally known that reality is just this material system with certain laws and logic to it and we don't know why it's there or what's beyond it but the only thing we can be sure of is that it's there and it's this way. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Someone here

[Someone here]

6 minutes ago, Meta-Man said:

We are not. That is a concept born out of ignorance. Consciousness is Reality is The Ground. I think Leo made a video about this very subject.

There might be something beyond ‘simply logic’ and seeming contradictions waiting for you to discover 

 

How can "consciousness" be the substance of reality?  I'm having a hard time figuring this one out.  Consciousness is apparently a quality that certain creatures have like humans and animals.. A rock ain't conscious for example.. It doesn't see or touch or smell or even know that it exists. Unless if you redefine the word "consciousness" to mean something else than what it was originally intended for. This "nothing" or whatever but i don't see any "nothing" here.. All i see are limited distinct things!

[The observer]

6 hours ago, Someone here said:

So far my contemplating led me to the following :

1- the "real world" in the waking state is no different from the dream's world in terms of the apparent phenomenon. It's just that the latter is more consistent and more logical. 

2- the substance of reality is completely unknown. Could be matter or imagination but that doesn't say anything about what it actually is!, 

3 - also whether it be this or that I still don't know why anything exists at all whether it's matter energy awareness God etc 

Love your attitude!

1- Have you noticed that consistency and logic are not inherent features of this dream? Furthermore, have you noticed that these things don't exist unless you think of them? You might say that your direct experience says otherwise. Cool. Try to explain how it's so without using thoughts. Can you? That's how you imagine reality. Without imagination (i.e. awareness and not consciousness), you wouldn't know whether you're alive or existing or not.

2- Imagine a scenario where you've witnessed a beautiful sunset. After a few hours, you go on telling that story to some of your friends. The telling of the story is equivalent to the thoughts in your mind. The thoughts in your mind about reality are not what reality is. What is reality? If it clicks, then you will see that reality is just itself. All labels are mere pointers and they're fundamentally irrelevant. So, in a sense, you're on point here. The substance of reality is completely unknown, but it is experienced, lived, being made aware of, etc... (stories/pointers).

3- The answer to this question is very advanced. It is Infinite Love. But you probably have a distorted concept of that, which is not your fault. None of us knew without inquiring deeply using the question "why?" with genuine curiosity. I'd focus more on meditation and being able to see the thoughts from a detached position. The rest will unfold naturally.

[The observer]

5 hours ago, Someone here said:

How is it possible that nothing imagines something?

How? I could give you the answer, but it probably wouldn't penetrate. There is genuine curiosity here with this question. I love that! Yet, notice how the mind is conditioned to make conclusions based on prior experiences (memories). Notice how the following assumptions create confusion:

5 hours ago, Someone here said:

If reality is absolute nothing it should be nothing forever and we can't be here even as an imagination. 0+0+0+0+0+0 to infinity is still zero!  If you have nothing at all you can't have something. If I want you to make me a meal I have to give you some raw material "food" to make thr meal. But if I give you "nothing" you won't be able to turn that nothing into food!

These are all good assumptions to have when conducting an experiment or an investigation on the personal level. These are stories and knowledge acquired by the mind through experiences on a timeline of seemingly consistent reality. That's fine. Having these assumptions can be helpful in many situations. Yet, when you are inquiring into the nature of reality looking for the ultimate answers, I find it way more helpful to go meta on all the assumptions/mental constructs. Notice how the mind assumes that if reality is "this" then it "should" or "shouldn't" be "that". I want you to see first that whether you think reality is nothing or something or everything or anything in between is irrelevant to what reality actually is. Consider the sunset analogy in my previous post. Reality is itself. The labels are fine as pointers if not confused for the actual thing. This confusion between thought and reality often causes trouble. Can you accept that if reality was "something" then there's no should statements for how it can be "something else"? After all, who sets the rules? If logic is a mental construct gained from a personal experience over a particular timeline, then how would you know logic is fundamentally true at all times? ( even though dreams prove it to be otherwise/fluid/changing). Also, how would you know that logic existed before you were born? Before the big bang? Etc.. Why would reality be logical? For God's sake, how's reality logical?! How's existence logical?! The beautiful feeling of wonder shows that there's something more to reality than just dumb logic. There is a mystery. Reality is mystical. How can reality even be?! Keep at it. Keep wondering. The answer is under your nose.

5 hours ago, Someone here said:

What does it mean "seems there but not really there".. It's either there or it's not.. It might be a mirage or a dream like but that doesn't change the fact that something of any kind is just there. Hope that makes sense. 

Notice these are just thoughts. Drop them and come be in touch with reality. Let go of the stories. And come observe the sunset! 

Edited May 4, 2020 by The observer

[The observer]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

How can "consciousness" be the substance of reality?  I'm having a hard time figuring this one out.  Consciousness is apparently a quality that certain creatures have like humans and animals.. A rock ain't conscious for example.. It doesn't see or touch or smell or even know that it exists. Unless if you redefine the word "consciousness" to mean something else than what it was originally intended for.

Yes. Consciousness is not the same as awareness. A human being or an animal has awareness. A rock does not. Pretty obvious stuff. Consciousness is not necessarily aware. It can have zero to infinite awareness. For better inquiry, try to not use these pointers as truths. They serve a purpose to illustrate certain aspects and qualities of reality but all of them are ultimately limited. They cannot capture the essence of reality itself just as much as I cannot capture a beautiful sunset with words.

[zeroISinfinity]

Well it's not philosophical it's actual one and just 2 words needed. 

INFINITE (PURE ACTUAL) LOVE. 

Zen boy without psychs fucking nailed it. (you wanted it that way, yeah it's true Truth is Truth doesn't matter) 

Edited May 4, 2020 by zeroISinfinity

[The observer]

@zeroISinfinity ? 

[Someone here]

9 hours ago, The observer said:

1- Have you noticed that consistency and logic are not inherent features of this dream? Furthermore, have you noticed that these things don't exist unless you think of them? You might say that your direct experience says otherwise. Cool. Try to explain how it's so without using thoughts. Can you? That's how you imagine reality. Without imagination (i.e. awareness and not consciousness), you wouldn't know whether you're alive or existing or not.

Well consistency and logic are inherent to reality.  Basic logical rules are undeniable otherwise we won't be able to have any discussion of any kind. The structure of language itself and communication and thoughts follows rational patterns.  And I think its there even if didn't thought of them or try to prove them.. A=A.. 1+1=2 and the whole is bigger than its parts are valid even if you claim otherwise. 

[Someone here]

9 hours ago, The observer said:

The answer to this question is very advanced. It is Infinite Love. But you probably have a distorted concept of that, which is not your fault. None of us knew without inquiring deeply using the question "why?" with genuine curiosity. I'd focus more on meditation and being able to see the thoughts from a detached position. The rest will unfold naturally.

It's the same issue with saying that consciousness is the substance of reality and saying love is the substance. I can't make sense of this at all.. The word "love" in all human languages was made to describe the emotions that we feel admiration and attraction to other people or stuff... How is that the substance of the universe.?  You might say it in a metaphorical way in the sense that everything is in a union but I can't follow how is it that the very clay out of which everything was made is "love"?  Love is just an abstract emotion. 

[Someone here]

8 hours ago, The observer said:

Notice how the mind assumes that if reality is "this" then it "should" or "shouldn't" be "that". I want you to see first that whether you think reality is nothing or something or everything or anything in between is irrelevant to what reality actually is. Consider the sunset analogy in my previous post. Reality is itself. The labels are fine as pointers if not confused for the actual thing. This confusion between thought and reality often causes trouble. Can you accept that if reality was "something" then there's no should statements for how it can be "something else"? After all, who sets the rules? If logic is a mental construct gained from a personal experience over a particular timeline, then how would you know logic is fundamentally true at all times? ( even though dreams prove it to be otherwise/fluid/changing). Also, how would you know that logic existed before you were born? Before the big bang? Etc.. Why would reality be logical? For God's sake, how's reality logical?! How's existence logical?! The beautiful feeling of wonder shows that there's something more to reality than just dumb logic. There is a mystery. Reality is mystical. How can reality even be?! Keep at it. Keep wondering. The answer is under your nose.

As I said if I to even start the inquiry I have to start somewhere with certain assumptions. My assumptions are based on logic because that's the only tool I have other than my senses. So if you ask me to drop logic and reason there won't be any inquiry and I will be left with mystical reality where I simply don't know anything.

9 hours ago, The observer said:

 

[cetus]

25 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Love is just an abstract emotion. 

@Someone here You are confusing egoic love (emotional love) for Absolute Love - in which there are no requirements.

[Someone here]

5 minutes ago, cetus said:

@Someone here You are confusing egoic love (emotionl love) for Absolute Love.

Well maybe. What is "absolute love"?! 

[The observer]

41 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Well consistency and logic are inherent to reality.

Are they really? Or do you think (imagine) they are? There's a huge difference here.

41 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Basic logical rules are undeniable otherwise we won't be able to have any discussion of any kind. The structure of language itself and communication and thoughts follows rational patterns.

When you were a child and before you learned that there are rules, were you not able to relate to others? When you're discussing which food you like best, is logic necessary? When you feel hungry, how is logic related to that feeling? I'm not saying that you should close your mind or shut your eyes off to what you've learned so far. Knowledge is very important. It is valuable, so of course, you should keep it. Yet, it can hinder your ability to understand the most fundamental aspects of reality. For now, try to recognise that the things you've learned are not necessarily how reality actually is ultimately. This is not about denying logic. It's about seeing through it. It's about seeing logic for what it is. Take a careful closer look. What is logic? That is a good question to have a go at.

41 minutes ago, Someone here said:

And I think its there even if didn't thought of them or try to prove them.. A=A.. 1+1=2 and the whole is bigger than its parts are valid even if you claim otherwise. 

Notice how quick the mind works. There are subtle assumptions that go unnoticed in the process. That's what meditation is for. It helps you slow down the thoughts so that you can process each one of them individually. Notice;

1 (thought)

+ (thought)

1 (thought)

= (thought) 

2 (thought)

These thoughts occur seamlessly within the mind so quick that it's very difficult to be able to notice them. Why did we as children struggle with learning maths at first? Because it's a very complicated process that involves a complex of thoughts/assumptions. When these assumptions are made and after a while of using them in the real world, the mind forgets and takes for granted that that's how reality is, not how it learned to think it is. Notice that. And of course, I'm not claiming that 1+1=2 is false. I'm trying to point out how this process occurs. Even the conclusion: "I think its there even if didn't thought of them or try to prove them" is a thought. Again, not necessarily false. But just a thought (as underlined). It is thought/believed by you that that's how reality is. Without/before that thought/belief, what is reality?

Edited May 5, 2020 by The observer

[Someone here]

23 minutes ago, The observer said:

What is logic? That is a good question to have a go at.

You can ask the same question about litteraly anything in existence. I pointed that out in the OP.  You can ask what is a "tree"?  From absolute perspective no one actually knows what a tree ultimately is!  But from a relative common perspective we all know obviously what "tree" is!.  Same with "logic" and everything else. Logic is a bunch of abstract rules which describes the fundamental structure of our reality as we observe it. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Someone here

[Someone here]

25 minutes ago, The observer said:

Notice how quick the mind works. There are subtle assumptions that go unnoticed in the process. That's what meditation is for. It helps you slow down the thoughts so that you can process each one of them individually. Notice;

1 (thought)

+ (thought)

1 (thought)

= (thought) 

2 (thought)

These thoughts occur seamlessly within the mind so quick that it's very difficult to be able to notice them. Why did we as children struggle with learning maths at first? Because it's a very complicated process that involves a complex of thoughts/assumptions. When these assumptions are made and after a while of using them in the real world, the mind forgets and takes for granted that that's how reality is, not how it learned to think it is. Notice that. And of course, I'm not claiming that 1+1=2 is false. I'm trying to point out how this process occurs. Even the conclusion: "I think its there even if didn't thought of them or try to prove them" is a thought. Again, not necessarily false. But just a thought (as underlined). It is thought/believed by you that that's how reality is. Without/before that thought/belief, what is reality?

I'm not sure why  should the fact that "1+1 =2" is a "thought" make it less valid or anything of that sort. Thoughts are simply descriptions of reality. Some thoughts are valid and some are not.. To the degree they accurately describe the actual world around us.  1+1=2 is a valid thought which means if you go out in the world and put one orange aside of another orange you get two oranges and it can't be otherwise!. 

"Reality is made out of love ". Is invalid thought because if you look at the world  you find matter and energy time and space and you don't find any "love" in there! 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Someone here

[The observer]

42 minutes ago, Someone here said:

It's the same issue with saying that consciousness is the substance of reality and saying love is the substance. I can't make sense of this at all..

Nobody can make sense of this at all anyways. It's completely nonsensical. Yet, it is true. This is exactly what I'm trying to say. Making sense is a recognition that occurs within the mind. It is a function of the mind. However, Truth is beyond the mind. Beautiful sunsets are beyond the mind. Love is beyond the mind.

How is being alive here as a human being sensical? Does it really make sense? Do you not wonder how it is even possible to exist in the first place? Notice, the mind will come up with all sorts of stories and explanations for why things are the way they are. The mind will say; well, I'm a human being because I was born when a man and a woman had an intercourse so the sperm did penetrate the ovum and then I was a fetus and then I came into this world and grew up until now. Whether this story or any other is true or not is not in our interest here. We're not trying to track the sequence of events that happened to the body from the moment of conception until now. It's an irrelevant story. A red herring that keeps the mind from seeing the actual thing; that it is a red herring! To distract you from what? From being without a thought. From living without a story. From feeling the present moment; from seeing things for what they actually are.

59 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Love is just an abstract emotion. 

As I said, Love is a very advanced realisation. So, don't beat yourself up for not being able to see it for now. Right now, I'd focus more on Absolute Truth. Love will come afterwards.