Surprising Truth About Caffeine

[herghly]

How often is okay to drink coffee / tea? 
 

what’s the goal here? 
 

the book - caffeine blues, is vey eye opening 

[LfcCharlie4]

@herghly Personally I'm drinking 0 Coffee and Tea, except maybe a Sunday morning after drinking once in a while 

[herghly]

@LfcCharlie4 Why though? 

I'm trying to under this better and it seems to be daily tea can be healthy

[Scholar]

21 hours ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Been almost 3 weeks for me now and I will NEVER go back to daily caffeine consumption my sleep is SOO much better and energy is much more stable throughout the day.

Same, started exactly 3 weeks ago. Only drank a single cup of coffee and a single cup of green tea a day. The difference is just really staggering, I used to stop drinking coffee but continued to drink green tea, and I never had these results. Which means for me I cannot consume green tea.

 

Sleep is much better, I feel energized throughout the day. Digestion is much better, less dehydration and the list goes on. I had real problems with fatigue that are now completely gone.

[flowboy]

Just watched this and found it entertaining but there's something absurd about it. Clearly, these people are exhibiting all the symptoms of a hardcore addiction: heavy withdrawal symptoms, and rationalisations about how it makes them a better person and everything. It's quite disturbing to watch.

How can they be okay with being addicted? I just don't understand it.

The only things I want to be dependent on are food, water and air.

First comment nails it: "Documenting a socially accepted addiction relapse"

[Javfly33]

On 17/5/2020 at 9:48 AM, outlandish said:

@Scholar

I've posted so many links to studies and resources around caffeine in this forum, so I'm a bit little tired of the routine. Honestly, just look on Dr. Greger's site nutritionfacts.org and search for caffeine, coffee or tea. He has a great high level analysis of the research that's out there. It's very clear and honest, for anyone that doesn't feel the need to get into the nitty-gritty. He's constantly consuming, digesting, and presenting a layman's summary of the literature for us.

But if you really want to dig into some papers:

• General: From a 2015 meta-study in pubmed: "..the vast majority of contemporary sources not only emphasize a lack of detrimental effect, but also suggest a beneficial effect of coffee intake" Abstract is here, full text here.
• Longevity: "Coffee drinking was inversely associated with mortality, including among those drinking 8 or more cups per day and those with genetic polymorphisms indicating slower or faster caffeine metabolism." abstract
• Mental health: "Moderate caffeine intake (< 6 cups/day) has been associated with less depressive symptoms, fewer cognitive failures, and lower risk of suicide" Abstract 
• Cardiovascular Disease: "Moderate coffee consumption (3–5 cups per day) was associated with lower CVD risk, and heavy coffee consumption (≥6 cups per day) was neither associated with a higher nor a lower risk of CVD." paper

I'm not trying to convince any one person that they should consume caffeine. Health and diet are super complicated. You can't be prescriptive towards any one individual about something like this. Actually, some people are being really prescriptive on this forum about not drinking caffeine, which is why I keep jumping in on this.

When you look at the population scale, consumption of coffee and tea boosts longevity, decreases cardiovascular disease, reduces rates of many cancers, and even reduces rates of suicide. It's pretty hard to argue against that.

So while it may not be a good fit for you, on average, for most people it turns out to be a healthful habit. So suit yourself, but there's no good health reason to tell others not to drink it.

tldr; If you like drinking coffee/tea and you're not going overboard (less than 5 cups a day say), it's not bad for you; it's probably good for you. 

Keyword: Hormesis.

@outlandish

 

It's very different doing studies analyzing the benefits of a plant, and another thing is to do a real analyzing of the whole spectrum. Kratom is also a perfect example of this. Kratom has been showed to help in depression, anxiety, mood boost, skyrocket immunity in the body...etc yet I would find it very naive to use those benefits as an argument for Kratom being healthy. Those studies doesn't show how the negatives, which can be sneaky to discover especially in much of today's society which is highly ignorant of the potencial of their bodies.

The main issue here is the current society is such at a low level of connection and understanding to the body that even some addictions are considered good. Ime, the word "healthy" along with "dependence" doesn't make sense. Yet this is literally what it is being encouraged when studies try to say that it can be beneficial to have consume an addictive substance on a daily manner.

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Javfly33

[flowboy]

On 17-5-2020 at 9:48 AM, outlandish said:

@Scholar

I've posted so many links to studies and resources around caffeine in this forum, so I'm a bit little tired of the routine. Honestly, just look on Dr. Greger's site nutritionfacts.org and search for caffeine, coffee or tea. He has a great high level analysis of the research that's out there. It's very clear and honest, for anyone that doesn't feel the need to get into the nitty-gritty. He's constantly consuming, digesting, and presenting a layman's summary of the literature for us.

But if you really want to dig into some papers:

• General: From a 2015 meta-study in pubmed: "..the vast majority of contemporary sources not only emphasize a lack of detrimental effect, but also suggest a beneficial effect of coffee intake" Abstract is here, full text here.
• Longevity: "Coffee drinking was inversely associated with mortality, including among those drinking 8 or more cups per day and those with genetic polymorphisms indicating slower or faster caffeine metabolism." abstract
• Mental health: "Moderate caffeine intake (< 6 cups/day) has been associated with less depressive symptoms, fewer cognitive failures, and lower risk of suicide" Abstract 
• Cardiovascular Disease: "Moderate coffee consumption (3–5 cups per day) was associated with lower CVD risk, and heavy coffee consumption (≥6 cups per day) was neither associated with a higher nor a lower risk of CVD." paper

I'm not trying to convince any one person that they should consume caffeine. Health and diet are super complicated. You can't be prescriptive towards any one individual about something like this. Actually, some people are being really prescriptive on this forum about not drinking caffeine, which is why I keep jumping in on this.

When you look at the population scale, consumption of coffee and tea boosts longevity, decreases cardiovascular disease, reduces rates of many cancers, and even reduces rates of suicide. It's pretty hard to argue against that.

So while it may not be a good fit for you, on average, for most people it turns out to be a healthful habit. So suit yourself, but there's no good health reason to tell others not to drink it.

tldr; If you like drinking coffee/tea and you're not going overboard (less than 5 cups a day say), it's not bad for you; it's probably good for you. 

Keyword: Hormesis.

@outlandish You obviously didn't read Caffeine Blues. If you're a fan of hard scientific evidence, you'll want to give that a read. Just to get a good balanced view. I'd be curious to know if you'd still be recommending coffee as a "health habit" after that

 

By the way, these associations found in meta-analyses don't mean there is a causal link. If you're going to say that coffee reduces risk of suicide, then you might as well say that it increases the risk of lung cancer, because that association was also found in the study you cited

Edited May 27, 2020 by flowboy

[outlandish]

@Javfly33 Of course you shouldn't recommend kratom, the balance of evidence does not come out in its favour. Nor should belladonna or wormwood be recommended... 

When you look at coffee and holistically consider the risks and benefits, there are some risks, but they seem to be outweighed by the benefits. It's difficult to measure a net risk/benefit, but most meta studies come out in favour of tea and coffee. But the main sticking point to me is this: When you look at large studies that compare the longevity of coffee/tea drinkers vs non, the coffee/tea drinkers come out ahead. That's a pretty good high-level measuring stick, since lifespan is the function of so many thousands of health factors.

BTW the "dependency" issue is overstated. It's not at all like the kind of dependency you'd get from kratom, nicotine, alcohol or benzodiazepines. I usually quit twice a year, and it's no big deal - the first day I'm a bit grumpy and sleepy, then a couple more days of being sleepier, and after about 4-5 days total you forget about it. Don't confuse the caffeine dependency with a real addiction.

@Javfly33 no I haven't read that book. It looks heavy on the fluff and designed to sell copies in the airport bookstand, more than being a real medical analysis. I flipped through the preview on amazon, I'd be more inclined to read a meta-study than that kind of book tbh.

[Javfly33]

4 hours ago, outlandish said:

@Javfly33 Of course you shouldn't recommend kratom, the balance of evidence does not come out in its favour. Nor should belladonna or wormwood be recommended... 

When you look at coffee and holistically consider the risks and benefits, there are some risks, but they seem to be outweighed by the benefits. It's difficult to measure a net risk/benefit, but most meta studies come out in favour of tea and coffee. But the main sticking point to me is this: When you look at large studies that compare the longevity of coffee/tea drinkers vs non, the coffee/tea drinkers come out ahead. That's a pretty good high-level measuring stick, since lifespan is the function of so many thousands of health factors.

BTW the "dependency" issue is overstated. It's not at all like the kind of dependency you'd get from kratom, nicotine, alcohol or benzodiazepines. I usually quit twice a year, and it's no big deal - the first day I'm a bit grumpy and sleepy, then a couple more days of being sleepier, and after about 4-5 days total you forget about it. Don't confuse the caffeine dependency with a real addiction.

 

Well, I´m literally having WORSE WD effects from caffeine that from Kratom. There´s no way Kratom can be compared with benzos or alcohol wd.  I used it daily for over 5 months and one day stopped for 2 weeks to take a tolerance break, well the WD was noticeable lighter than the one I´m having from coffee. So there´s that. At the 4 day I was totally Ok in energy levels. I am at 6 day of coffee and I´m still wasted.

As I said Kratom shows plenty of "benefits" like coffee does: Energy boost, mood boost, depression and anxiety relief, immunity boost...etc. Until the know the only bad thing proven from Kratom is constipation. Which gets more or less solved with a more high-fiber diet , magnesium and more water. See, the thing is not the physical harm. As I said caffeine or even Kratom could be healthy for you, I´m not debating the possible physical benefits of caffeine but what studies can´t show how you can:

 - Become lazy 

 - Become comfortable with your life 

 - Use a substance to avoid facing the real issues of your depression, lethargy or lack of concentration.

- Lose touch with your inner desired and your true motivation that drives you. If I have a shitty job, and I do caffine, I can make the work. If I stop caffeine, I might stop being motivated so I´ll just think that coffee is a great thing that makes productity easier. But another perspective could be that a sober perspective give me a clear view of what I really like. But most people are so disconnected they are afraid of this.

This are real dangers! But since they are long-term, nobody really talks about them. Yeah, welcome to drugs and the world of "making things easier".

See, it´s very easy to show the benefits but is not so much this kind of cons. This kind of cons are sneaky, society must be at minimum level of awareness to actually take into account this cons. This approach is very hard to find into studies, (nor I believe are the goals of them tbh)

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Javfly33

[universe]

On 20.5.2020 at 9:07 PM, LfcCharlie4 said:

Been almost 3 weeks for me now and I will NEVER go back to daily caffeine consumption my sleep is SOO much better and energy is much more stable throughout the day.

Here is an interesting study https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26899133/

Drinking coffee 9h before bedtime does have a negative effect on your sleep. There are a lot of studies that show the positives in coffee which I think boil down to that it makes you more productive = doing something = feeling better. And some other health benefits e.g. from antioxidants.

[LfcCharlie4]

@universe Thanks man, yes I do think it effects your sleep if I’m honest. 
 

It’s hard to quit, what has helped me is lemon water, cold showers, Wim Hof and celery juice lmao, oh and morning fruit for energy. 
 

Will report back in a month, but I feel “normal” again. 

[Alextvvv]

I believe the whole point is to establish a healthy relation to caffeine, if possible

But how could caffeine be that harmful to us if it's found in so many sources (coffee, tea, yerba mate, kola nut, guarana, cacao..), each of which has lots of health benefits?

Coffee for me can become very hard on the system by its acidity and the jitterness and anxiety it can induce if consumed for some days in a row. To counter acidity, I found cold-brew coffee to be effective, while keeping all the benefits.

When consuming coffee, I exclusively brew organic & fair-trade beans that I ground myself at the time of making it. That way I get the fullest and rawest experience of what coffee is supposed to bring me. I never drink more than 1 cup a day.

 

Dr Andrew Weil on stimulants :

1. Limit your frequency use
2. Use stimulants purposefully  
   (not to feel good, rather for a physical or mental task)
3. Do not take stimulants to help perform ordinary functions
4. Take stimulants by mouth
5. Take dilute forms of stimulants rather than concentraded ones
6. Maintain good habits of nutrition, rest and exercice
   (remember that stimulants forces your body to give up its stores of chemical energy. The healthier you are, the less you will feel that you need outside stimulation)
7. Do not combine stimulants with depressant or other drugs
   (don't fall in a 'morning-stimulant followed by evening-depressant' pattern)
8. Avoid look-alike drugs

Edited June 1, 2020 by Alextvvv

[LfcCharlie4]

@Michael569 please can you post your knowledge on other sources of caffeine as most of this has been about coffee. 
 

So things like Green Tea, after a 30-90 caffeine detox and everything like that- cheers  

[Javfly33]

Fuck THIS, I´m on day 12 and I can´t fucking focus on work. Literally I have done in the last 12 days like in 2 days that I would do on caffeine.

 Energy levels for exercising and physical energy it´s OK, once I get moving I am more or less the same as I was on caffeine. But mental work? OMG! Such an idiot I was conditionining myself all of this years working with coffee.

 

[Scholar]

3 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

Fuck THIS, I´m on day 12 and I can´t fucking focus on work. Literally I have done in the last 12 days like in 2 days that I would do on caffeine.

 Energy levels for exercising and physical energy it´s OK, once I get moving I am more or less the same as I was on caffeine. But mental work? OMG! Such an idiot I was conditionining myself all of this years working with coffee.

 

Try Brahmi it can help with caffeine withdrawal.

[LfcCharlie4]

Btw, in regards to Becker, he just released his advice regarding Dry Fasting, and is the perfect example of why to always do further research into healthy and not take a Biz YouTubers advice at the drop of a hat. 

 

[Javfly33]

18 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Btw, in regards to Becker, he just released his advice regarding Dry Fasting, and is the perfect example of why to always do further research into healthy and not take a Biz YouTubers advice at the drop of a hat. 

 

@LfcCharlie4 Did something happened to him doing dry fasting?

 

20 hours ago, Scholar said:

Try Brahmi it can help with caffeine withdrawal.

Thanks. I´m gona order some capsules tell you how it goes

[Scholar]

4 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

@LfcCharlie4 Did something happened to him doing dry fasting?

 

Thanks. I´m gona order some capsules tell you how it goes

Best if you take them before bed, they make me a little sleepy.

[LfcCharlie4]

@Javfly33  No he's just not a nutritionist lmao, and recommending 48 hour dry fasts to anyone and everyone as a productivity hack is extremely risky and just pretty stupid imo. Fasting isn't something you should just jump into, it's becoming too trendy as some fix all solution. 

I'm not saying it doesn't have it's place but a 48 hour dry fast every 2 weeks (as Becker recommended) is the fast track to health issues, I would never recommend a dry fast.

Before even considering fasting, much more Detoxing of the body should've already been done, or you'll end up relying on Adrenaline for energy. 

I personally do Intermittent Fasting, but have scaled it back a little recently. 

This article explain it pretty well: 

https://www.medicalmedium.com/blog/truth-about-fasting

[Scholar]

39 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@Javfly33  No he's just not a nutritionist lmao, and recommending 48 hour dry fasts to anyone and everyone as a productivity hack is extremely risky and just pretty stupid imo. Fasting isn't something you should just jump into, it's becoming too trendy as some fix all solution. 

I'm not saying it doesn't have it's place but a 48 hour dry fast every 2 weeks (as Becker recommended) is the fast track to health issues, I would never recommend a dry fast.

Before even considering fasting, much more Detoxing of the body should've already been done, or you'll end up relying on Adrenaline for energy. 

I personally do Intermittent Fasting, but have scaled it back a little recently. 

This article explain it pretty well: 

https://www.medicalmedium.com/blog/truth-about-fasting

Not to forget different constitutional types which are not at all recognized in western medicine. Looking at ayurveda for example for Vatas, like what I am, fasting can have negative effects, which is something I actually observed myself over time.

Fasting worked well for me in the short term, but in the long term it deteriorated my health.

 

On the contrary caffeine also has an especially bad effect on Vatas, which I observed aswell.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Scholar