Surprising Truth About Caffeine

[RawJudah]

@Junin no caffeine at all would be the way to go. Small amounts of caffeine is still addictive..

[outlandish]

Caffeine consumption extends lifespan and reduces risk for all kinds of chronic disease. You might want to reconsider ditching caffeine. You all know about Dr. Greger, the plant-based diet guy? His website is a really good digest of what the research actually says about nutritional topics. Check out the section on caffeine.

[Junin]

2 hours ago, outlandish said:

Caffeine consumption extends lifespan and reduces risk for all kinds of chronic disease. You might want to reconsider ditching caffeine. You all know about Dr. Greger, the plant-based diet guy? His website is a really good digest of what the research actually says about nutritional topics. Check out the section on caffeine.

Wow, an interesting turn of events for sure. If figuring out if I should drink coffee or not is this difficult, I don't have much faith for more complex subjects like enlightenment! 

[Osaid]

@outlandish Interesting, I didn't know caffeine by itself could be healthy. All in moderation I guess.

[Osaid]

@Junin Just keep it to 1 cup a day and take it early. You can go for a coffee fast if you think you're getting addicted or something. You don't have to take it religiously.

 

[Scholar]

15 hours ago, outlandish said:

Caffeine consumption extends lifespan and reduces risk for all kinds of chronic disease. You might want to reconsider ditching caffeine. You all know about Dr. Greger, the plant-based diet guy? His website is a really good digest of what the research actually says about nutritional topics. Check out the section on caffeine.

Not necessary when we can get the same benefits without the negatives from other sources. You can get antioxidants from other sources fairly easily, which is most likely the primary reason why coffee is so beneficial for people who mainly get their antioxidants from coffee anyways.

Then you add an entire industry which has no reason to publish studies on the negative effects of caffeine while having an incentive to publish positive results.

https://www.foodpolitics.com/2019/01/industry-funded-study-of-the-week-coffee-protects-dna/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10333733

 

Notice how there is no nuance whatsoever, no dietary ward etc.

In the end it's most likely that it is the antioxidants which have created this "DNA protective" effect, no miracle component in the coffee that somehow makes it super healthy compared to vegetables and fruits. Yet, nobody seems to be talking about any of the negative effects, and any such effect is dismissed as insignificant while any positive effect is interpreted as somehow relevant while obviously not comparing them to other food-groups.

This is what the meat, dairy and egg industry commonly does. They talk about so called positive effects of meat due to certain nutrients found in said product, yet they fail to mention that there are food groups which contain these nutrients or positive effects aswell, sometimes to a far higher degree, while not coming with the negative effects that come with the consumption of meat. And then the headline is "Meat is healthy because X component is found in it!".

 

https://www.banyanbotanicals.com/info/blog-banyan-vine/details/caffeine-and-your-ayurveda-practice/

Edited May 9, 2020 by Scholar

[Olly]

@LfcCharlie4 For me personally, Coffee makes me feel amazing initially but I always notice myself needing more and more of it to get that same ‘hit’. I also noticed a lot of skin issues and digestive issues after drinking coffee.
 

All that aside, I do drink green tea and dark chocolate daily which both contain caffeine, but much less that coffee does. 
 

What’s amazing about green tea is that it contains an amino-acid called l-theanine which counteracts all the negative side effects of coffee. 

[mandyjw]

Tea, both black and green, are high in fluoride, so if you drink tea it's good to be a bit mindful of that. 

[LfcCharlie4]

@Olly Yeah, I was only drinking Green Tea by the end, but was still having sleep issues as I was up to like 4-5 cups a day, like you say always needing and wanting more! 

[Javfly33]

Just some weeks ago I decided I was going to stop taking caffeine as an habit and just reserve it for "special occasions". 

I have gone from 3 cups to 2 cups in the last 2 weeks and this week I'm doing only 1 cup until I can be able to go some days without caffeine.

I was able to quit it totally for over 3 weeks a year ago and IT WAS CRAZY I didn't had normal levels of energy until the 3-4th week!!

 

[Olly]

@Preety_India Thank you! Just what my ego wanted to hear

[Olly]

 

@LfcCharlie4 I think if you have the money you should try a 23andMe blood test to see what your genes say about you. 
 

I think coffee works great with 0 side effects for some people, however other people respond very negatively. 
 

Sometimes you gotta put all research aside and test what works for yourself. 

[outlandish]

On 5/9/2020 at 1:15 AM, Scholar said:

Yet, nobody seems to be talking about any of the negative effects, and any such effect is dismissed as insignificant while any positive effect is interpreted as somehow relevant while obviously not comparing them to other food-groups.

The negative effects are literally all anyone talks about. People have been saying coffee and tea are bad for you forever, except the problem is the balance of actual evidence doesn't support the position. The idea that coffee and tea are good for you is something no one wants to hear, because it's completely counterintuitive that an addictive drug could, ironically, actually be good for you. 

I used to buy into it too, until I started actually researching it and not just going on the word of mouth you read on forums like this one.

By all means, experiment with not drinking coffee and tea. If it suits you and you feel better without it, then don't drink it. But don't be mislead by false puritanical ideas that it's "better" to not drink coffee and tea. Quit if it suits you, drink it if it suits you. If you do choose to partake, you can do so guiltlessly knowing that you're not destroying your health or some such nonsense.

[Scholar]

On 11.5.2020 at 7:27 PM, outlandish said:

The negative effects are literally all anyone talks about. People have been saying coffee and tea are bad for you forever, except the problem is the balance of actual evidence doesn't support the position. The idea that coffee and tea are good for you is something no one wants to hear, because it's completely counterintuitive that an addictive drug could, ironically, actually be good for you. 

I used to buy into it too, until I started actually researching it and not just going on the word of mouth you read on forums like this one.

By all means, experiment with not drinking coffee and tea. If it suits you and you feel better without it, then don't drink it. But don't be mislead by false puritanical ideas that it's "better" to not drink coffee and tea. Quit if it suits you, drink it if it suits you. If you do choose to partake, you can do so guiltlessly knowing that you're not destroying your health or some such nonsense.

If you are so well read, it would be nice if you could actually showcase that what you are saying is true. Show me the studies on all the possible negative effects coffee could have on an individual with respect to different constitutional types and in consideration of more subtle phenomena than all-cause mortality or specific disease occurance.

Show me the studies that compare coffee, or general substances with caffeine, with other alternatives that provide similar benefits. Show me the peer reviewed paper which established whether or not there is a bias in the direction or pursuit of results on the current research regarding caffeine.

 

There is nothing scientific about exclaiming that science says coffee isn't bad for you because there is not enough evidence to support that position. A lack of evidence is only relevant if there is evidence of a unbiased pursuit towards a whole picture that includes phenomena which are difficult to study.

 

 

Imagine if all the research on exercise was to revolve around the negative effects of exercise, would you then conclude exercising is bad for you because there is no evidence to show it is good for you? This has nothing to do with science. You first have to establish that there is no bias within the overall research direction. And with an industry that funds most of studies on caffeine to be geared towards showing positive effects, having no obligation to release studies that would show negative effects, I am really curious what you will find in this regard.

 

Under your epistemological standard, a few decades ago it would have been completely fine to say smoking cigarettes doesn't harm you because the evidence does not support it.

 

 

And also, don't forget that with the reductionistic approach of the current scientific culture it is extremely difficult to map relationships and subtle phenomena which get lost in the play of averages and reductions. You are operating under the assumption that current western scientific methodology and culture is infallible or the most appropriate tool to map these phenomena.

I can tell you when I drink caffeine I have to go take a shit within 5 minutes, no matter at which time I drink it. I don't need any research to tell me this is unhealthy and destructive.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Scholar

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

On 5/11/2020 at 10:27 AM, outlandish said:

The negative effects are literally all anyone talks about. People have been saying coffee and tea are bad for you forever, except the problem is the balance of actual evidence doesn't support the position. The idea that coffee and tea are good for you is something no one wants to hear, because it's completely counterintuitive that an addictive drug could, ironically, actually be good for you. 

I used to buy into it too, until I started actually researching it and not just going on the word of mouth you read on forums like this one.

By all means, experiment with not drinking coffee and tea. If it suits you and you feel better without it, then don't drink it. But don't be mislead by false puritanical ideas that it's "better" to not drink coffee and tea. Quit if it suits you, drink it if it suits you. If you do choose to partake, you can do so guiltlessly knowing that you're not destroying your health or some such nonsense.

Thank you.

[Moon]

I do love the taste of coffee, rarely have it though.

Daily 100mg caffeine tablet + 200mg L-theanine tablet is amazing for me as a student, it means getting the benefits of caffeine without the anxiety and I don't feel withdrawal symptoms on days off!

I also don't feel the need to have more and never have more than 100mg in one day

Edited May 17, 2020 by Moon

[outlandish]

@Scholar

I've posted so many links to studies and resources around caffeine in this forum, so I'm a bit little tired of the routine. Honestly, just look on Dr. Greger's site nutritionfacts.org and search for caffeine, coffee or tea. He has a great high level analysis of the research that's out there. It's very clear and honest, for anyone that doesn't feel the need to get into the nitty-gritty. He's constantly consuming, digesting, and presenting a layman's summary of the literature for us.

But if you really want to dig into some papers:

• General: From a 2015 meta-study in pubmed: "..the vast majority of contemporary sources not only emphasize a lack of detrimental effect, but also suggest a beneficial effect of coffee intake" Abstract is here, full text here.
• Longevity: "Coffee drinking was inversely associated with mortality, including among those drinking 8 or more cups per day and those with genetic polymorphisms indicating slower or faster caffeine metabolism." abstract
• Mental health: "Moderate caffeine intake (< 6 cups/day) has been associated with less depressive symptoms, fewer cognitive failures, and lower risk of suicide" Abstract 
• Cardiovascular Disease: "Moderate coffee consumption (3–5 cups per day) was associated with lower CVD risk, and heavy coffee consumption (≥6 cups per day) was neither associated with a higher nor a lower risk of CVD." paper

I'm not trying to convince any one person that they should consume caffeine. Health and diet are super complicated. You can't be prescriptive towards any one individual about something like this. Actually, some people are being really prescriptive on this forum about not drinking caffeine, which is why I keep jumping in on this.

When you look at the population scale, consumption of coffee and tea boosts longevity, decreases cardiovascular disease, reduces rates of many cancers, and even reduces rates of suicide. It's pretty hard to argue against that.

So while it may not be a good fit for you, on average, for most people it turns out to be a healthful habit. So suit yourself, but there's no good health reason to tell others not to drink it.

tldr; If you like drinking coffee/tea and you're not going overboard (less than 5 cups a day say), it's not bad for you; it's probably good for you. 

Keyword: Hormesis.

[Scholar]

2 hours ago, outlandish said:

@Scholar

I've posted so many links to studies and resources around caffeine in this forum, so I'm a bit little tired of the routine. Honestly, just look on Dr. Greger's site nutritionfacts.org and search for caffeine, coffee or tea. He has a great high level analysis of the research that's out there. It's very clear and honest, for anyone that doesn't feel the need to get into the nitty-gritty. He's constantly consuming, digesting, and presenting a layman's summary of the literature for us.

But if you really want to dig into some papers:

• General: From a 2015 meta-study in pubmed: "..the vast majority of contemporary sources not only emphasize a lack of detrimental effect, but also suggest a beneficial effect of coffee intake" Abstract is here, full text here.
• Longevity: "Coffee drinking was inversely associated with mortality, including among those drinking 8 or more cups per day and those with genetic polymorphisms indicating slower or faster caffeine metabolism." abstract
• Mental health: "Moderate caffeine intake (< 6 cups/day) has been associated with less depressive symptoms, fewer cognitive failures, and lower risk of suicide" Abstract 
• Cardiovascular Disease: "Moderate coffee consumption (3–5 cups per day) was associated with lower CVD risk, and heavy coffee consumption (≥6 cups per day) was neither associated with a higher nor a lower risk of CVD." paper

I'm not trying to convince any one person that they should consume caffeine. Health and diet are super complicated. You can't be prescriptive towards any one individual about something like this. Actually, some people are being really prescriptive on this forum about not drinking caffeine, which is why I keep jumping in on this.

When you look at the population scale, consumption of coffee and tea boosts longevity, decreases cardiovascular disease, reduces rates of many cancers, and even reduces rates of suicide. It's pretty hard to argue against that.

So while it may not be a good fit for you, on average, for most people it turns out to be a healthful habit. So suit yourself, but there's no good health reason to tell others not to drink it.

tldr; If you like drinking coffee/tea and you're not going overboard (less than 5 cups a day say), it's not bad for you; it's probably good for you. 

Keyword: Hormesis.

You have not really provided what I have asked for, I am aware of Dr. Gregers stance on this. I think you did not quite grasp the point of my post, as Dr. Greger is precisely one of the people I would criticize for what I mentioned in my previous post.

For example: Consumption of coffeee and tea boost longevity in a population which gets most it's antioxidants from coffee. To frame that therefore we should drink coffee because it extends longevity is very misleading because there are many other sources of antioxidants.

 

In my opinion you have a very simplistic view of what is healthy and what isn't healthy. For example, coffee can be good at surpressing depression and therefore elevating someones mood, and therefore lowering the risk for suicide. But it is interesting how you do not mention how for such people getting off of coffee is enormously difficult and that it can lead to them never addressing the root issues of their problems. You have a substance here which significantly affects the chemistry of your brain, what about all the effects on consciousness development this might have? Do you have a study on that? Of course you don't, because science today is so unconscious it is not even considering this to be an important aspect of health.

 

With the methodology presenting in the studies you provided it is not possible to map high variance reactions or subtle phenomena which are not looked for or too dfficult to establish. What if different people have different reactions to coffee which have a detrimental effect on their ability to thrive, but do not effect all cause mortality? What if there are things that effect all cause morality positively but yet hinder the ability of the mind, body and spirit to thrive? Why don't you compare coffee to something like Brahmi?

You are reading results without any context whatsoever, which I was asking you not to do.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Scholar

[outlandish]

On 5/17/2020 at 3:13 AM, Scholar said:

You have not really provided what I have asked for, I am aware of Dr. Gregers stance on this. I think you did not quite grasp the point of my post, as Dr. Greger is precisely one of the people I would criticize for what I mentioned in my previous post.

...

You are reading results without any context whatsoever, which I was asking you not to do.

Sorry but you're a being a bit confrontational in your tone, and I'm not here to take assignments from you. You can endlessly come up with "but what about this, what about that" .. yes science will never have all the answers, naturally. We can only ever do the best we can with the knowledge that we have.

I'm not trying to convince you, or anyone, to drink coffee or tea. You should find what works best for you. I'd just like everyone to be aware of what the research actually says, because the popular demonization of vegetal caffeine drinks (coffee, tea, mate) is grounded more in puritanical ideas than in actual evidence.

Caffeine-drinking habits, on average, improve health outcomes for most people. Doesn't mean it will for you, and doesn't mean that stimulation/energy is desirable for you personally. There are many valid reasons any one person might not want to partake. However, for most people, when taken in moderation, it's a very healthy habit.

I'm gonna go make an espresso.

[LfcCharlie4]

Been almost 3 weeks for me now and I will NEVER go back to daily caffeine consumption my sleep is SOO much better and energy is much more stable throughout the day. 

Agree, it's all about experimenting on oneself and finding what works best for each of us, my next experiment is Celery Juice and the Medical Medium, I want my body optimised as much as possible and this guy fascinates me!

Here's some videos Alex has made recently on this topic...