How is it possible that Leo and Ralston disagree?

[Artaemis]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I dunno. I've only begun to explore it. There is much to explore.

Telepathy for me has felt as if the whole forum were in a single room and I could hear the conversations or lack thereof, although not in vast detail yet.  I could feel when they were 'blown out'.

[James123]

@Leo Gura Unfortunately, i had open heart surgeries and pacemaker. I heard that 5 meo dmt boosts blood pressure and puts big pressure on the heart. I will be stick with the meditation. I have got still some ego, this Body might die lol. 

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, James123 said:

@Leo Gura Unfortunately, i had open heart surgeries and pacemaker. I heard that 5 meo dmt boosts blood pressure and puts big pressure on the heart. I will be stick with the meditation. I have got still some ego, this Body might die lol. 

That may be wise. I'm no doctor.

But also, once you get used to 5-MeO-DMT, it doesn't really put pressure on the heart. The heart pressure and blood pressure will naturally rise if you are freaked out over ego-death. But if you surrender calmly, nothing should rise. The 5-MeO-DMT is challenging mentally, not so much physically. At least when plugged.

But yeah, in your case it might be too dangerous. Then again, you say you did 10g shrooms so...

I would be more scared of 10g shrooms than 5-MeO-DMT. I find shrooms to be one of the most challenging substances aside from salvia.

I definitely caution you guys to be careful with 5-MeO-DMT. I am very careful with it, and even so, I've had some challenging times. Exploring consciousness can be dangerous activity. Then again, Peter Ralston has jumped off roof-tops in his youth and fought in deadly tournaments -- so he's not exactly above dangerous things. I think martial arts is more dangerous than moderately dosed psychedelics.

[Virtually]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That may be wise. I'm no doctor.

But also, once you get used to 5-MeO-DMT, it doesn't really put pressure on the heart. The heart pressure and blood pressure will naturally rise if you are freaked out over ego-death. But if you surrender calmly, nothing should rise. The 5-MeO-DMT is challenging mentally, not so much physically. At least when plugged.

But yeah, in your case it might be too dangerous. Then again, you say you did 10g shrooms so...

I would be more scared of 10g shrooms than 5-MeO-DMT. I find shrooms to be one of the most challenging substances aside from salvia.

I definitely caution you guys to be careful with 5-MeO-DMT. I am very careful with it, and even so, I've had some challenging times. Exploring consciousness can be dangerous activity. Then again, Peter Ralston has jumped off roof-tops in his youth and fought in deadly tournaments -- so he's not exactly above dangerous things. I think martial arts is more dangerous than moderately dosed psychedelics.

I think the entire point that Ralston's making is simply: do not confuse this state or that state with the "fact" that reality is states. One particular state is not enlightenment. Enlightenment is realizing reality is states, or you could say getting stuck in relativity vs realizing the absoluteness of relativity. I'm sure you're already aware of this, and also my formulation makes it look binary and simple. But it's to underline what I think the disagreement is

Satori is not a state. You can't "experience" satori since satori is everything already and has always been everything, even "before" enlightenment. The fact that you understand satori is a state: the understanding of satori that you retain is formed, and so it must itself be a state. That's what makes it possible to understand it at deeper and deeper levels.

[ttm]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

5-MeO-DMT goes beyond traditional enlightenment to levels of awakening that no ordinary human is capable of.

Perhaps, but you might still hugely underestimate "the levels of awakening" which are achievable without it.

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

5-MeO-DMT can give you a such a satori that you will not even be able to walk around.

Yeah. But the problem here is, that it could very well be the case, that actually you would want to be able to walk around. And still, it's possible to get such unable-to-walk-satori without psychedelics too. You might have made incorrect conclusions about what is achievable without psychedelics, from your lack of achievements without them.

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Keep in mind that the people who do Peter's workshops and retreats... I would not consider a single one of them truly awake. Neither is his apprentice -- who I'm good friends with. It's all good stuff, but it's not even 1% close to the awakenings I've experienced.

Why do you think it's so important to you in every turn and corner to underline how much more awoke you are than everyone else?

[electroBeam]

52 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You imagine every Zen master who ever lived. That's actual. When you realize that, talking to them will become moot. You'd just be talking to yourself. Why on earth would you ask a Zen master to tell you that you're God? This such an absurd move that you will laugh when you realize what you're doing.

I read a book once about the occult. They talked about how to 'download' expertise from people. The technique basically was, to place mindfulness and contemplation on imagination, and trying to uncover the substance of it. For example, if you wanted to be as good as Steve Jobs, you basically contemplate and place mindfulness everything that you imagine about steve jobs and what you admire about him, and through that you download Steve Job's skills.

Based on my experience, this works well a little bit, but I still don't think this technique is totally effective. To truly learn everything about steve jobs, you have to go through all the challenges that he went through. Even if you imagine steve jobs, you're only imagining a specific aspect of him at once, and you need to actually do stuff like go up to him and talk to him, to 'generate' more imagination of steve jobs. I think its the same for zen masters.

Your POV only contains aspects of the zen teacher, to 'generate' more aspects you need to go up and talk to him or be in his presence. You can't just know everything about that zen teacher but doing meditation in your living room. 

Edited April 28, 2020 by electroBeam

[Leo Gura]

33 minutes ago, Virtually said:

I think the entire point that Ralston's making is simply: do not confuse this state or that state with the "fact" that reality is states. One particular state is not enlightenment. Enlightenment is realizing reality is states, or you could say getting stuck in relativity vs realizing the absoluteness of relativity. I'm sure you're already aware of this, and also my formulation makes it look binary and simple. But it's to underline what I think the disagreement is

Except my claim is that awakening IS a state. Some states of consciousness are awake and other aren't.

Quote

Satori is not a state. You can't "experience" satori since satori is everything already and has always been everything, even "before" enlightenment.

I disagree. Satori is a state and you can only achieve it precisely because you lost it to begin with.

If satori was truly permanent, you could not have been born as a human ego. The whole point is that God can lose consciousness of itself. In fact, that's mostly what it's busy doing.

You can argue that you never lost it, that you've always been awake. But to me this is silly. You were not born God-realized. Of course you were not born at all, but nevertheless, you believed for most of your life that you were born. Thus you were asleep. If you were asleep, then you weren't awake. And if you weren't awake, then whatever "permanent" satori you get in this life, you will lose at some point.

God forgets itself, God remembers itself. This cycle has no beginning or end.

The only reason there are unenlightened beings is because some enlightened being lost his permanent state of enlightenment.

30 minutes ago, ttm said:

Perhaps, but you might still hugely underestimate "the levels of awakening" which are achievable without it.

Same goes for with it.

Quote

Yeah. But the problem here is, that it could very well be the case, that actually you would want to be able to walk around. And still, it's possible to get such unable-to-walk-satori without psychedelics too. You might have made incorrect conclusions about what is achievable without psychedelics, from your lack of achievements without them.

Yes, I don't dispute this at all. By all means pursue a stable 24/7 satori. I am.

But also open your mind to something beyond that.

Quote

Why do you think it's so important to you in every turn and corner to underline how much more awoke you are than everyone else?

Like I said in my Outrageous video, it's not about me being more woke than others. It's about reaching the highest understanding of reality. If you don't question the wokeness levels of your teachers you will simply never reach the highest levels of understanding possible. You will settle for less.

My concern is understanding/consciousness, not comparing myself to other teachers. The comparison is only there in order to show you that there is a deeper level possible, not to put myself above others. Ralston is very masterful, much more so than I. So I don't hold him as some inferior person. I respect him a lot and value his work. But what he says about 5-MeO-DMT is simply incorrect. And you can easily verify it for yourself. 5-MeO-DMT will give you a deeper awakening than you will ever get at one of his workshops or enlightenment intensives. This much I would bet $100,000 on. With that said, I still enjoy his workshops. He has a lot to offer. But you won't understand most of it until you do 5-MeO-DMT.

[Enlightenment]

@Leo Gura So you basically claiming that there is no permanent parinibbana possible?

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

@Leo Gura So you basically claiming that there is no permanent parinibbana possible?

I claim that mahasamadhi may be possible. But that means you leave material existence forever. At least until you decide to start the whole cycle over again.

It's pretty simple really: we can all agree there is only ONE being in the universe: God. This being can know it is God, or not know it. If it knows it, it's awake at least to some degree. If it doesn't know it, then it's clearly not in parinibbana. So clearly parinibbana cannot be a final resting.

[James123]

@Leo Gura you are %100 right. 10 gr shrooms was too much. I will check out 5 meo dmt again. I take blood thinner medication (warfarin, if warfarin level goes high i can have internal bleeding or low can have stroke, because i have a mechanical valve). I used shrooms because they are natural (Normal mushrooms, just includes psilocybin) . Additionally, i spoke with a clinic, which is located at Vancouver/Canada, they told me 5 meo dmt could be dangerous for me and advice either lsd or shrooms. Thats the reason why i have done the shrooms as 10 gr. Thanks a lot for the advice.  But I really want to do 5 meo dmt. I will deeply search it again.

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, James123 said:

@Leo Gura you are %100 right. 10 gr shrooms was too much. I will check out 5 meo dmt again. I take blood thinner medication (warfarin, if warfarin level goes high i can have internal bleeding or low can have stroke, because i have a mechanical valve). I used shrooms because they are natural (Normal mushrooms, just includes psilocybin) . Additionally, i spoke with a clinic, which is located at Vancouver/Canada, they told me 5 meo dmt could be dangerous for me and advice either lsd or shrooms. Thats the reason why i have done the shrooms as 10 gr. Thanks a lot for the advice.  But I really want to do 5 meo dmt. I will deeply search it again.

Again, be cautious. I am not responsible for your health or death.

But the nice thing with 5-MeO-DMT is that you can plug a tiny amount of it and just feel minor effects and slowly ramp up from there. So you should be able to gently inch your way up very carefully and feel if there is any blood pressure problems or heart problems. You can even measure your blood pressure while you're on it.

5-MeO-DMT makes my body feel good. It actually temporarily frees me of all my health problems. You just have to learn to surrender to it and then it feels amazing. The come-up only lasts from 5 mins to 15 mins. After the 15 min mark you will be tripping hard but the bodily stuff is behind you. Of course this assumes you surrender to it. If you resist it, oh boy... that might be hell. I'm too scared to dare resisting 5-MeO-DMT. Once that thing is in you, you better surrender immediately.

I can foresee some serious heart issues if your dose goes 30mg+. That's when your consciousness will become so infinite that your heart will melt and explode out your chess in Love. There will be kundalini activation and all sorts of crazy shit can happen. But I never go that far. I keep my dose to 25mg max. Which is still crazy strong for me.

[James123]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I claim that mahasamadhi may be possible. But that means you leave material existence forever. At least until you decide to start the whole cycle over again.

What about Buddah boy in Nepal, who doesn’t move, eat or drink for days? He just talks about love. 

Edited April 28, 2020 by James123

[James123]

@Leo Gura Thanks a lot. I am very cautious about the situation. Thats the reason why I haven’t use 5 meo dmt. Even if i do, for first time i will go either Mexico or canada to do it in professional hands, which will improve my concentration for the direct experience. 

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, James123 said:

What about Buddah boy in Nepal, who doesn’t move, eat or drink for days?

I have no idea about him. But if he is a human form, he's still limited. If he is in Nepal, isn't also in Japan. Thus limited.

5 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

@Leo Gura This is why I have avoided psychedelics is because I have circulation issues and am not sure what they are caused by yet - may very well be the heart.  Are there any psychedelics that do not cause any physical effects at all if someone has a health issue or should I just wait until true death for that glimpse?  I'm patient pertaining to this.  I can wait.

Again, I'm no doctor so I can't tell you what is safe for you.

Like I said, the biggest factor is not the chemical itself but how you choose to react to it, which no one can predict. If you start freaking out, that can certainly cause some physical stress. But in my experience most psychedelics do not have a significant effect on the heart or blood. I don't feel my body getting taxed by them. The mind yes, the body not so much. But maybe that's just me. I tend to surrender to psychedelics very easily. So I rarely have issues.

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Leo Gura

Is it possible to practice surrender sufficiently before the trip or is the trip necessary to teach you to surrender?

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, James123 said:

for first time i will go either Mexico or canada to do it in professional hands

Actually I would caution against this for you. Shamans are known to give huge doses, they make you vape it, and the toad venom isn't gonna have a consistent potency because no two toads are the same.

The safest way to take 5-MeO-DMT is synthetic, and plugged up your butt.

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Leo Gura

Is it possible to practice surrender sufficiently before the trip or is the trip necessary to teach you to surrender?

This will vary a lot from person to person.

Of course all practice helps. So it's a good idea to try it and maybe do some visualization exercises to program that into your mind.

But ultimately the trip itself will do most of the work. Literally all you gotta do is trust it and let go and let it show you God. That's it! It will show you exactly what you need next to reach towards God. Sometime that will be God itself. But often times it will first show you psychological baggage which is holding you back from facing God directly.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

I have a panic disorder so there is a good possibility of this.

You should know this: I have never had a panic attack in my life. Until the first time I look 5-MeO-DMT. And I've never had one since. But that first time.... I learned what a panic attack is. I overcame it by surrendering.

A 5-MeO-DMT breakthrough is the most shocking and freaky thing that will ever happen in your life. It is pure mindfuckery. You will be so mindfucked you will not even understand how such a mindfuck is possible. It is an impossible mindfuck, yet you will be right in the middle of it.

I hope you like a good skullfucking by God, cause you're gonna get it

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

How did your panic attack feel to you?

Imagine how you'd feel if you just ate some cyanide to kill yourself, but then you instantly regretted it, wishing you could undo it, but also knowing that there is no undoing this. There's no going back.

[Virtually]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Except my claim is that awakening IS a state. Some states of consciousness are awake and other aren't.

Exactly. It's an on and off thing. That's what makes understanding possible: there is understanding you're god, and not understanding you're god. I'm not claiming you can achieve awake without actually awakening.

32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I disagree. Satori is a state and you can only achieve it precisely because you lost it to begin with.

Infinity includes the possibility in which you become infinity. But you were the whole time

35 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You can argue that you never lost it, that you've always been awake.

You can lose it precisely because it's a relative state. Infinity must include both possibilities.

You can understand infinity, but Infinity itself can't be a distinction. It is all distinctions.
God can understand he is God, precisely because he can also NOT understand that, as you say. But it is infinity/god/nothing at all times, God loves himself infinitely whether you experience that or not.

So in that sense satori IS a state, and it's not infinity, to the extent that every-distinction is and is not infinity itself.

I would be cautious with Ralston's claim and clarify what "knowing" you're everything all the time means. As he sais chapter 9 of genius of being you can't survive within "no context". So he goes on to say that you can create a new context for experience that is inclusive of the understanding retained from the awakening. Sounds like what embodiment is about to me, and not "direct experience all the time".