Veganism Or Vegetarianism?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Epiphany_Inspired said:

As someone that was raised veggie, worked 10 years in natural foods, and has developed a new perspective in later life, I can offer a unique opinion. I agree that a vegan lifestyle is better for the planet, that said, I do not feel that the meat alternative industry is up to par yet, especially in the realm of fats. The key to health is; a nutrient-dense, natural, unprocessed and unrefined diet. Please see the research of Dr. Weston A. Price, (he saw the link between modern food and health decay). In aprox. 1920's he was able to travel the world and find the last truly healthy cultures. The only healthy plant-based culture he found (I think Africa) ate lots of insects (so vegans could consider cricket flour, cricket burgers, etc, sustainable animal protein). Weston price found that this insect culture was actually the least healthy, of all the traditional cultures, and the inuit, high-animal-fat culture was healthier (this does not mean you should eat big portions modern animal fat). For me, until I can buy/ make something like cricket burgers that contain a similar fat profile to chicken and fish I choose the healthiest, most sustainable animal choices: i drink raw milk from happy goats living in harmony with their babies year round, I drink bone broth/ eat happy chicken from a local farm, I eat pasture raised eggs, honey, and most importantly fermented cod liver oil, or krill oil!
Ethically I'd prefer to be vegan, but my personal experience; as a veggie for 30+ years, I literally had to force myself to eat organic range chicken, but once I started I quickly had more emotional control, less negative emotions, and  vastly improved mental stability and function. I am 100% with the Weston price foundation on PRO RAW MILK, I've witnessed it cure major illness in my child and others. Sauerkraut and fermented veg have awesome probiotics too, but so far the most amazing, powerful, probiotic I've ever discovered is raw milk Kiefer, a miracle of nature to which there is currently no comparable vegan alternative.... but the revolution is coming see: http://futurefood2050.com/what-will-we-be-eating-in-2050/

I also wanted to add my opinion re: veganism and evolution. I truly believe that enlightened future humans could evolve to live on a purely vegan diet. I think the current nutritional needs of humans stem from a vast history of animal fat consumption, and we have not yet evolved beyond this need.... hopefully soon... our minds are awakening, so our bodies could follow suit

 

Lol, eating crickets means vegan and plant based now? Since when are insects plants and not animals? Yeah instead of killing chicken I will kill bugs now and eat them. 

[nbolt]

21 hours ago, Epiphany_Inspired said:

i drink raw milk from happy goats living in harmony with their babies year round

I literally had to force myself to eat organic range chicken, but once I started I quickly had more emotional control, less negative emotions, and  vastly improved mental stability and function.

so far the most amazing, powerful, probiotic I've ever discovered is raw milk Kiefer, a miracle of nature to which there is currently no comparable vegan alternative ... the revolution is coming

 

hahahahah, man it really is amazing how deluded people can get.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Neill Bolton

[Guest]

@Neill BoltonIf you browse through the dephts of the forum you will realize that with this post the terror is only just beginning.

[Veggies]

On 8.3.2016 at 8:19 AM, Phocus said:

Thank you!

And I wouldn't imagine that to be a problem.  Most of those fats are not saturated.  You can Google "____ nutrition info" (almond, peanut, cashew, avocado, olive oil, ect...) and see that most of the fat contained from these plant-based sources are not saturated.  The most noteworthy source of saturated fat from a plant is actually coconuts (their milk and oil).  Coconut oil is associated with a wide variety of health benefits though so I would do your research on that before making any decisions.  When cooking with plant-based oils, they have a Smoke Point, at which their monounsaturated fat is broken down into saturated fat.  For this reason it is recommended to cook with oils like Avocado, which have an extremely high smoke point that wont likely be reached while cooking.

Hocus pocus, it's time to focus. I believe veganism wouldn't suit me so I'm going with vegetarianism instead.

 

Veggies make me fart

[Epiphany_Inspired]

@Leo Gura and other ovo-vegetarians; As fellow "pasture-raised-egg -eaters", do you feel that you could maintain optimal health for your body, if you eliminated all animal products including fish/ krill oil supplements?

@Phocus; What do you think of the comments above by Rasmus and Neill Bolton? I have only briefly scrolled through all the comments in this topic but i appriciate your desire to have a healthy debate, i enjoy that too.

@Rasmus, and @Neill Bolton; If you would like to disagree with me that's great, i am always open to constructive debates! let's talk goat keifer alternatives, etc... Please also consider, do your comments positivly reflect your peer community tittles of "expert" and "apprentice"? for the sake of others that may have wished to contribute to this topic, consider exercising tollerance toward different views, and treating everyone with respect.

@Rasmus; fair enough, you are opposed to ALL "killing", like the dhali lama, i find this an admirable trait. you believe the killing of crickets is equal to the killing of chickens, and on a spectrum of consciousness, some people would rate crickets a small step above carrots, while others would share your view. From a sustainability perspective alone, crickets are far superior to chicken. I also have a spectrum of vegan friends, some are religliously rigid and avoid ALL animal products, others eat honey and krill oil, and maybe they'd eat crickets. Consider respecting; those that identify with the term vegan may be more diverse, after all, "vegan" should be a meat-and-dairy-free lifestyle choice, not a cult. For me, transitioning into a pesco pollo vegetarian diet from a lacto ovo one included a lot of rescearch, professional nutritional consultations, and personal trials to shape the evolution of my present food choices including checking the gauge on my personal moral compass. Consider that I am not advocating eating Mc'nuggets/ caged hormone chickens slaughtered in horrific conditions, or suggesting anyone drink puss laden cow milk products from similarly disturbing sources. Consider that happy goats milked by hand in small quantities, at small local farms, is actually a more sustainable practice than big agra almond milk etc... Did you check out the future food 2050 link? I think we will both be stoked for that amazing sounding lupine flower milk, yum!

@Neill Bolton; With an open mind, i accept that i may be deluded about some things, with the exception of truly enlightend people, we are all deluded in our own ways (was there more to your comment, deleted something when edited?). You quoted me re: goats. yes, they are happy, they litteraly come running up smiling. Yes, they do live with their nursing babies, we know them all by name. Yes, raw goat probiotis did transform my child's health when vegan alternatives could not, amazing stuff! Re: chicken as the girl that vomited at every bbq (because of smell), i did have to force myself to eat chicken. my father worked in a slaughter house in his 20's so meat was banned from our home, my digestion evolved with limited tollerance. My perspective re: eating chicken and mental stability has not come from my personal experiences alone. Here's another example; 4 of my friends with bi-polar were vegan for decades and have also improved vastly after introducing eggs, fish/ fish oils, and chicken/bone broth. Consider that each person on the planet is unique, some folks may not be capable of proper mental function on a rigid vegan diet because the current omega and protein alternatives are not yet suitable in terms of meeting specific needs. You don't have to agree, just have an open mind and consider it.

[Phocus]

@Rasmus@Neill Bolton@Epiphany_Inspired

Neil/Rasmus - If you truly believe that someone is delusional, simply telling them they are delusional does not do anything to bring them out of delusion. It only satisfies your egoic need to be right by dismissing what they had said. Observe your thoughts.  Remain quiet, knowing that they are not open to accepting your message; or, try and better understand their perspective.

Edit: not* open

[Guest]

@Phocus You are right of course. From what I see you posting on this forum, you should have way more positive reps my friend.

@Epiphany_Inspired You should have quoted me properly so i saw your post earlier. Well at least I saw it now. The point is that no real vegan will agree with you about eating insects. After I have seen your post, I have told about it to all my vegan friends and they thought it was outrageous. If you want to eat crickets then you cannot label yourself vegan or vegetarian. You want to eat pure plant based. Yeah it may be more sustainable and a better alternative to chicken but you are still a carniwhore lol. A meateater who eats animals. Even if you eat clams you aren't a vegan. I just want to make sure that insects are no plants. Most, if not all, can feel pain too! It's not karma free food. And I think it is quite bad, a real tragedy if someone claims to eat a plant based/karma free/vegan food and then eats insects. I am personally not a vegan, I eat meat too from time to time, so i probably would even eat insects. But even I understand how wrong it is to eat animals and still call yourself a vegan.

[Phocus]

On 3/17/2016 at 6:20 AM, Rasmus said:

@Phocus You are right of course. From what I see you posting on this forum, you should have way more positive reps my friend.

Good advice isn't always popular advice

[nbolt]

On 3/16/2016 at 1:33 AM, Phocus said:

If you truly believe that someone is delusional, simply telling them they are delusional does not do anything to bring them out of delusion. It only satisfies your egoic need to be right by dismissing what they had said. Observe your thoughts.  Remain quiet, knowing that they are not open to accepting your message; or, try and better understand their perspective.

My aim is not to bring them out of delusion, it is to express my opinion.

[Guest]

@Phocus Could not agree more. Lots of people don't want to hear the good advice, because it hurts their ego

[Epiphany_Inspired]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies @Phocus and Rasmus. @Rasmus I was shocked to read that you eat meat, my judgement had pegged you as "wouldn't hurt\ eat a fly", ha ha..I agree with you, those that choose to eat insects may no longer fit the standard definition of vegan... in the beginnings of veganism things were a lot more rigid, religious even. Currently, here on the west coast of BC where vegans are VERY common, the modern definition simply means a person that doesn't eat dairy or animals (it's normal to eat honey or take krill oil). Perhaps there could be types of vegan, the same way a vegetarian that eats fish is a "pescatarian", there could be a new term for insect eaters that avoid all other meat, "bug-o-tarian" "insecto-vegan"...lol...The "feeling pain" thing is perhaps a topic for an additional post... but there is emerging evidence that plants feel pain too ( an example is that trees feel the loss of their fallen comrades and continue to send nutrients to neighbour stumps long after death). Even water is known to react to positive vs. negative comments, music etc...Everything in nature is alive and connected.

I think the message I have for this community is; regardless of what you are eating, plant or animal, respect it's life, and honour it's sacrifice\death.

1. Has the plant or animal lived a natural, preferably organic life? Was the plant/ animal\ animal product (dairy) altered in any way ( GMO\hormones\antibiotics\etc)?

2. Do you feel the plant/animal lived a "happy" life in good conditions (plants=good soil, light, water, animals= pasture, light, quality food, love, humane treatment)?

3. Did the plant/ animal die or "get milked" with honour? For plants you can choose things grown and harvested sustainably, preferably mostly by hand from small farms. For animal milk, in my opinion, you need to go to the farm and see for your self, even if it's the pasteurized stuff at the store, go see. Food animals, you could choose animals raised well, that are killed with compassion and honour. One thing that helped me with deciding to eat chicken, was learning to take the animals life myself with the de-braining method (so that they died instantly with no suffering, and so that I could personally honour their life). If you are unable to slaughter the animal, you could choose to buy from farms that accompany their animals to the facility and ensure that everything is humane ( the animal is calm, does not suffer, does not witness other animals dying, etc).

To answer the initial question, veggie or vegan, let your personal ethics, and desire for sustainability guide your choices... the rest will follow...

 

[nbolt]

25 minutes ago, Epiphany_Inspired said:

Thanks for the thoughtful replies @Phocus and Rasmus. @Rasmus I was shocked to read that you eat meat, my judgement had pegged you as "wouldn't hurt\ eat a fly", ha ha..I agree with you, those that choose to eat insects may no longer fit the standard definition of vegan... in the beginnings of veganism things were a lot more rigid, religious even. Currently, here on the west coast of BC where vegans are VERY common, the modern definition simply means a person that doesn't eat dairy or animals (it's normal to eat honey or take krill oil). Perhaps there could be types of vegan, the same way a vegetarian that eats fish is a "pescatarian", there could be a new term for insect eaters that avoid all other meat, "bug-o-tarian" "insecto-vegan"...lol...The "feeling pain" thing is perhaps a topic for an additional post... but there is emerging evidence that plants feel pain too ( an example is that trees feel the loss of their fallen comrades and continue to send nutrients to neighbour stumps long after death). Even water is known to react to positive vs. negative comments, music etc...Everything in nature is alive and connected.

I think the message I have for this community is; regardless of what you are eating, plant or animal, respect it's life, and honour it's sacrifice\death.

1. Has the plant or animal lived a natural, preferably organic life? Was the plant/ animal\ animal product (dairy) altered in any way ( GMO\hormones\antibiotics\etc)?

2. Do you feel the plant/animal lived a "happy" life in good conditions (plants=good soil, light, water, animals= pasture, light, quality food, love, humane treatment)?

3. Did the plant/ animal die or "get milked" with honour? For plants you can choose things grown and harvested sustainably, preferably mostly by hand from small farms. For animal milk, in my opinion, you need to go to the farm and see for your self, even if it's the pasteurized stuff at the store, go see. Food animals, you could choose animals raised well, that are killed with compassion and honour. One thing that helped me with deciding to eat chicken, was learning to take the animals life myself with the de-braining method (so that they died instantly with no suffering, and so that I could personally honour their life). If you are unable to slaughter the animal, you could choose to buy from farms that accompany their animals to the facility and ensure that everything is humane ( the animal is calm, does not suffer, does not witness other animals dying, etc).

To answer the initial question, veggie or vegan, let your personal ethics, and desire for sustainability guide your choices... the rest will follow...

 

There has only ever been a single definition of veganism, and that is someone who abstains from any and all animal products. 

You cannot have systemic genocide with "compassion and honour". There is no "method" that respects their life.

And don't bring up this plant feeling nonsense.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Neill Bolton

[Guest]

@Epiphany_Inspired haha, why would you think I wouldn't hurt or eat a fly? (also I'm sure a lot of us eat insects occasionaly in our sleep or when driving bike and we open our mouth in summer :P). I have thought about becomming a vegan, but as for now I still cannot put it into practice. But I now only rarely eat meat and only high quality meat.

Also you bring up a good point, plants feeling pain too and affecting karma. Then we could not eat a damn thing. But no worries, alone from living we kill millions and billions of life forms every day. That's life, kill or/and get killed. It's in the animal kingdom also. Even if I would become the most fanatic vegan I would still kill a lot of life simply by existing, taking steps, driving cars and breathing. And eating plants. Therefore, if I now eat meat once a week, meat that was raised for the sole purpose to be eaten(and would have otherwise not even existed) then I don't think it will make such a big difference. Even the buddhists say, eating meat is ok. And if you didn't kill the animal yourself, it's even okayer lol. If that makes sense...so you actually take more bad karma on you if you kill your chicken yourself yeah I know, a lot of stuff that buddhists say makes little to no sense. But about the honor part...I really don't think there is any honor in killing animals. How can you honor them by killing them with compassion or mercy? In the end, they are dead, and you killed them

[nbolt]

40 minutes ago, Rasmus said:

Even if I would become the most fanatic vegan I would still kill a lot of life simply by existing, taking steps, driving cars and breathing. And eating plants.

The loss of life caused by these actions are absolutely nothing compared to the animal agriculture industry. We slaughter two billion lives every single week. In comparison, only 100 billion humans have ever lived in the entire history of our planet. The loss of life is incomparable to anything else that has ever happened in earth's history, including every mass extinction event. There is no excuse or justification for this other than completely not giving a shit.

[Epiphany_Inspired]

@Rasmus Thanks for your honest response, it's awesome! This is a post about vegan vs. veggie, so I'd like to try to shift things back to that. I only brought up eating chicken\fish, because I was veggie for over three decades, (which is rare in our culture), and felt my health benefited from chicken/fish, fat/ bone broth, etc. I love many Buddhist philosophies, but I guess I disagree with that one. To answer your question, I do not in any way enjoy killing, I truly feel that if I do it personally with de-braining, I know % 100 that there was no suffering. Animals killed in slaughter houses are often traumatized and suffer when they die. Many people believe you take on that suffering when you eat an animal killed that way (see the work of Temple Grandon on compassionate slaughter). As far as honouring the animal, see First Nations cultures, my beliefs with; respect, honour, and compassion when eating animals are akin to these traditions. Thank you for asking so respectfully, I really appreciate that.

@Neill Bolton I could elude to the possibility that your aggression could potentially stem from a lack of proper omega intake... @Phocus Instead, I'd like to respond respectfully, even though I feel Neill may not have been giving me that same courtesy (telling me not to even bring up my perspective, etc)

@Neill Bolton The "great vegan honey debate" has changed the definition of vegan through many sources. Humans, our world, and our language/ definitions evolve perpetually....that's what actualization is really, evolution.... perhaps you could consider this.... or not...

I agree, there is no " method" of slaughter that respects an animals life. That respect comes from within your heart and soul  (like I said above, see First Nations culture).

There are too many examples to post, plants do feel, in my opinion, it's not nonsense.

Re: your statistics comment, thanks for sharing that. It now seems apparent that your real "beef" is with mass-meat- consumption, animal agriculture, corporations, etc. I am a big supporter of the concept that an individual CAN change the world, and I appreciate that you are trying to reach us (Rasmus and I) on an individual level... that said, we both consume very few animal products. You'd likely have a more meaningful, substantial, impact if you focused your efforts on; the animal industry heads, individuals that eat meat regularly, those that are ignorant and are making unconscious choices (normal/mainstream folks that no nothing about your statistics, etc). People on this forum, for the most part, are at least making conscious choices about eating animal products or not. My daughter was just having a tantrum that we'd run out of her fav vegan cheese (made from pea protein), it alerted me to the fact that I don't have time and energy to continue this, so I won't be commenting anymore....although I do respect this debate, thanks for your time as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

@Epiphany_Inspired Damn, how are you this respectful? have a wonderful weekend, thanks for your time!

[nbolt]

1 hour ago, Epiphany_Inspired said:

 

@Neill Bolton I could elude to the possibility that your aggression could potentially stem from a lack of proper omega intake.

The "great vegan honey debate"

There are too many examples to post, plants do feel, in my opinion, it's not nonsense.

Re: your statistics comment, thanks for sharing that. It now seems apparent that your real "beef" is with mass-meat- consumption, animal agriculture, corporations, etc. I am a big supporter of the concept that an individual CAN change the world, and I appreciate that you are trying to reach us (Rasmus and I) on an individual level... that said, we both consume very few animal products. You'd likely have a more meaningful, substantial, impact if you focused your efforts on; the animal industry heads, individuals that eat meat regularly, those that are ignorant and are making unconscious choices (normal/mainstream folks that no nothing about your statistics, etc). People on this forum, for the most part, are at least making conscious choices about eating animal products or not. My daughter was just having a tantrum that we'd run out of her fav vegan cheese (made from pea protein), it alerted me to the fact that I don't have time and energy to continue this, so I won't be commenting anymore....although I do respect this debate, thanks for your time as well.

1. hahahahahah

2. There does not exist a "great vegan honey debate". You are deluding yourself.

3. It is complete nonsense. Let's give this a go, shall we? I hand you a puppy, a carrot, and a knife. I put a gun to your head and tell you to stab one of them. Any person with anything resembling any amount of sanity will obviously stab the carrot because you fucking understand that the suffering of the carrot is not comparable to the suffering of the puppy so please stop making a mockery out of their life and slaughter with this "plants feel" nonsense. Also animal agriculture uses an incredible amount more plant food to feed the animals before they make it to our plate, so if this comment was made with any sort of genuine intention, you would realize that if you cared about the reduction of suffering in any form you would stop consuming animal products. But you don't care. You're just providing your ego with self-justification so you don't have to face what you are actually doing.

4. What the fuck? OF COURSE YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL DON'T CONSUME A HUGE AMOUNT OF ANIMAL PRODUCTS. One person is just a drop in the bucket. Another reason why it's so easy for us to not care. It's called the diffusion of responsibility, it is a very real social phenomenon, look it up. Just as one nazi back in the day is "just a drop in the bucket" and it's not like quitting your job would change anything. But you're not in nazi germany, you're in modern day society with perfectly easy access to almost every possible food you can imagine down the street at your local supermarket. Yet you still choose to be part of the group that is responsible for the largest systemic genocide in our planet's history. If you're ok with that, sure whatever, but I'm not going to sugercoat reality for you.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Neill Bolton

[Phocus]

I have heard a number of arguments against being vegan/vegetarian in my short time of following a plant-based diet so I'll list a few here to dispel some of the most common myths:

• You need to eat animal products or you'll be deficient in specific micro-nutrients/amino acids/something really technical that is difficult to disprove.  This comes up often with things like B12, calcium, Iron, Omega 3 fats, ect... Basically, all things that the mainstream has been brainwashed to think that only come from animal products.  The rampant steroid abuse in the fitness industry is also responsible for the over-recommended daily values for protein (not to mention the conflict of interests when they are all selling protein powders and other supplements).  B12 doesn't come from animals.  Calcium exists in a wide variety of plant-based sources, as does iron.  Fish don't produce omega 3 fats.  As for the technobabble from a variety of online sources that suggest our bodies can't function without some specific micro-nutrient found in an animal product, that is easily disproved by referencing... everyone who has been vegan 5+, 10+, 15+ years with perfectly healthy bodies that get regular blood-work done showing no deficiencies of any kind.  This is of course, discount the millions of years of our evolutionary history where our species followed vegan diets because we hadn't invented fire yet.  Evidence shows that we've only been eating meat for about 100,000 years, that's why we have so many evolutionary features of herbivores.  There are also a number of fitness models, power-lifters and athlete's that are going vegan and competing at the top levels available, including some setting multiple world records.
• Plant-based diets are bad for you/the environment because of the water used to grow the plants and toxins associated with insecticides and herbicides.  This can immediately be dismissed and turned around because the animals you eat require 50-100 pounds of PLANTS to produce 1 pound of meat.  Any toxins in the environment that animals consume are then concentrated and stored in their fat and then passed on to you in much higher doses and I already listed out the enormous destructive consequences that animal agriculture is having on our planet.
• Plants feel pain.  I have a hard time taking this seriously, but even if we just completely concede that soy beans and corn are capable of feeling the same complex emotions and psychological conditions of highly intelligent mammals, you're still killing 50-100 X more as described above.
• Animals can be killed humanely.  Some argue that it's POSSIBLE to grow and harvest animals humanely but... the fact of the matter is they aren't. 99% of all food animals produced in the USA come from factory farms.  They live miserable lives and are killed in inhumane ways.  Every slaughterhouse is different, but Ag-gag laws exist for a reason.  Same with Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act.
• I only eat Organic/grass fed/free range/cage free/ect.. These are mostly just to make people feel better about .  It has nothing to do with the way the animal is treated or the use of hormones and antibiotics.  You can raise an organic beef cow in a factory farm.  In fact, it wouldn't really make much sense for an organic beef cow NOT to be factory farmed because the organic certification already requires a much higher cost of production.
• "Well my friend has pet chickens/cows/goats/ect.. and they are played classical music and given daily massages so it's ok to eat THAT meat/dairy/eggs".  A lot of people use this to justify eating meat/dairy/eggs because they don't want to acknowledge that they are supporting an EXTREMELY corrupt and disgusting industry.  Even if you are one of 0.00001% of people who truly does consume a very tiny amount of ethically raised animal products, does that mean you are going to follow a vegan diet when you eat out at restaurants?  When you buy preprepared food?  Ect.. Probably not.  All of those animal products are going to come from factory farms.  None of it is organic.  Still, most people who say that don't actually live it.  They know its wrong, they just don't want to change.  I have encountered this many times in my short time while I've abstained from animal products.  I am not accusing anyone here.  Simply making the observation, that in my experience, this has been the case for people that I know in my "real" life.
• Vegan's eat a bunch of processed meat replacements that are unhealthy or only eat salads.  Simply being vegan doesn't mean you're healthy, although it massively increases the odds that you are.  Sodas, potato chips, french fries, oreos, and a huge host of other "accidentally vegan" foods are not good for you.  Same with gluten-free and fat-free foods.  It's just a fact about the food item.  I eat very few meat-replacements and very few salads.  My diet mostly consists of sweet potatoes, brown rice, a variety of beans, oats, fruits and vegetables.

Ultimately, consuming animal products is choice that we're all currently afforded.  In the coming decades, we're all going to be forced into a mostly plant-based diet by necessity.  That's just the reality of the situation.

As for defining "vegan" a google search for "veganism" yields the following:

Quote

"Vegetarians do not eat meat, fish, or poultry. Vegans, in addition to being vegetarian, do not use other animal products and by-products such as eggs, dairy products, honey, leather, fur, silk, wool, cosmetics, and soaps derived from animal products."

 

[Jennifer]

I am vegetarian, currently in progress of going full raw vegan. It was recommended to me to watch in this particular order the following documentaries, all which can be found on Netflix or Youtube: Cowspiracy, Forks Over Knives then Earthlings. I started watching the last one and could not make it all the way though, hence my current transition. Too disturbing on many levels. It is a process, but one well worth it for all the reasons @Neill Bolton mentioned. Oh, and food for thought If you eat an animal that suffered, was stressed and slaughtered, think about the idea that the animal which endured those feelings and experiences once consumed becomes part of your DNA. Bad karma and bad for those seeking enlightenment 

Edited March 25, 2016 by Jennifer

[Guest]

My (very short) two cents on this issue:

What would you do, if the one that suffers the consequences of your actions was YOU?

Kant said: All beings are ends in themselves. This is the ultimate truth of why all vegetarians and vegans do what they do.