Veganism Or Vegetarianism?

[otoumie]

For the moment I still eat meat, but less than Before. I´m searching for good reasons to switch into the right diet. With the global warming problem issues, proof that eating too much meat is bad for the Health etc... I´m more and more convinced that I should stop eating meat. Especially meat coming from other countries than my own. For the moment, I just know two possibilities, veganism or vegetarianism. Does anyone have experiences about one of those diets or perhaps Another diet even better for the Health and the planet?

(ps: I´m sorry if I spell wrong or do grammatics errors. I´m not a native English, still I´m working on it)

Edited February 8, 2016 by otoumie

[Psychonaut]

I'm in a similiar position as you are. Eating meat has bothered me for quite some time and a few weeks ago I decided to stop eating meat. I was also researching a bit about veganism vs vegetarianism and decided to go vegetarian. I think it might be easier to start with a vegetarian diet, at least that is something you can pull through with. You can get a vegeterian dish in almost any restaurant, but not always a vegan dish. Lot's of vegans quit. But if you start with vegeterian, you can always still go vegan and go back to vegetarian if vegan is too hard. But if you start with vegan right away you might not even try vegatarian afterwards.

[nbolt]

I'm vegan along with some other forum-goers. The core of my reasoning can be split into the ethical and ecological consequences.

Modern day animal agriculture is the primary driver behind almost every single major environmental illness our planet faces today- deforestation, ocean acidification, global warming.. all progressing at alarming rates. This is the toll that slaughtering two billion lives every week takes. For some perspective, only 100 billion humans have ever lived in all of history. If you want some more statistics I'd recommend checking out documentaries like cowspiracy.

We are losing an enormous amount of biodiversity every single day, for what? What is all of this death and destruction for? Something as inconsequential as a palette preference? This has gone way too far and needs to stop. This is not the "circle of life", this is systematic genocide that is harming not only other perfectly sentient, completely emotional beings, but ourselves and our planet.

Aren't we supposed to be striving towards enlightenment along with a more holistic view of the world? One of the core consequences of the no-self philosophy is that compassion and love become principles of the highest order, and one cannot claim to have attained that while still contributing to this system. That is an action taken with low consciousness and awareness.
 

Quote

"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the 'Universe,' a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest – a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."

-- Albert Einstein

 

 

[Ida]

Actually is veganism not a diet but a lifestyle philosophy :-P 

But to answer, if you take it easy on the milk, egg and butter then it might be more naturally for your body to be vegetarian. I do believe (from what I have studied) that becoming vegan is even healthier because you avoid so much bad fat and cholesterol. But you should consider that when you decide to go vegan, you pretty much have to take some vitamin supplement. If you don't get much sun, then you will lack D-vitamin, it's only found in animal products. And you have to take B12-vitamin, also found in animal products. There is people studying how to grow these vitamins in some special plants/mushrooms. But by now I believe it's safest to take a supplement besides your diet.

And of course it's easier to start out as a vegetarian and then buy lesser and lesser animal products. AND if you really want to help yourself and the planet, buy organics; free from chemicals  But I would recommend you to just buy a vegan cookbook

 

[Phocus]

Having been a lifelong athlete I had never considered being vegan as we're all taught that meat = protein = muscle.  I've been doing research and finding that this is not the case and that there are enormous benefits to eating a plat-based diet.

I am in the process of doing a trail run as vegan but during my research I have heard a couple of people report that being vegetarian caused zinc deficiencies, as milk can inhibit the absorption of zinc (which you may not be getting as much of, depending on your diet); so watch out for that one.

[Simon Zackrisson]

Hello lovely people.

I'm just a tiny voice of dissent in this. <3 
 

Note: I do not consider myself an expert in this.

 

I am currently eating a "diet" called LCHF, short for Low Carb, High Fat.

(Think of how humanity ate before 10 000 years, before we rolled out the serious farming)

This is a diet consisting of a tribute to what the human animal has eaten for millions of years.

(Our species has been around for about 3.5 million, with the most evolved versions dating to around 200 000 years.)

 

An exceptional resource for more information about LCHF, is www.dietdoctor.com. 

This website is driven by a doctor who previously believed the propaganda about saturated fats, and got sick of the constant worsening his patients condition, leading to a paradigm shift that ultimately resulted in helping A LOT of people achieve very tangible results.

(Such as: losing weight, throwing away the need for 12 pills a day, managing diabetes. And overall much better vitality.) 

 

What got me hooked on this website is the seemingly rigorous aspiration for objective truth. 

This website has no financial support from any organisation, or government.

(One final thing about it, I am mostly on the Swedish version for this website, but I can only imagine that the English version is as good, if not better) 

 

According to my research: No, meat in itself is not dangerous for you. Yes, there are bound to be many different studies, with many different results (that easily could be influenced by the agenda of whom is conducting the study) however my conclusion from looking over this is as stated above.

The influence factories have and how the preparation and storage is done however, is another story.

From a global perspective concerning the health of the planet, I believe for sure that our consumption of meat is NOT all dandy and fine. But this goes for the same with the industrial farming of crops, destroying lands, according to studies I've read.

 

Finally, I'm always striving to learn, to be open. Love to hear different non-defenisve, non-overemotional attached perspectives.

 

Also:

I disagree on the idea that eating a certain life-form that you can't empathise with, just simply because it happen to not express instincts of survival that you can pickup with your human senses, is more noble and makes you a more enlightened person. 

Edited February 9, 2016 by Simon Zackrisson

[Ida]

Hi Simon Zackrisson

My favorite vegan doctor, Dr. McDougall, is of the opposite opinion of you, of course :-P He eats a vegan diet because he believe it saves human lives (if the person at risk do it himself of course).

I will just recommend you all to see Forks over Knives and you could search Dr. McDougall up on google, he has done a lot of studies. Also where the eastern citizen is compared to the western people. In the east there is farely any lifestyle diseases. They eat more carbs and not much fat.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Ida

[Simon Zackrisson]

1 hour ago, Ida said:

Hi Simon Zackrisson

My favorite vegan doctor, Dr. McDougall, is of the opposite opinion of you, of course :-P He eats a vegan diet because he believe it saves human lives (if the person at risk do it himself of course).

I will just recommend you all to see Forks over Knives and you could search Dr. McDougall up on google, he has done a lot of studies. Also where the eastern citizen is compared to the western people. In the east there is farely any lifestyle diseases. They eat more carbs and not much fat.

Hi Ida

Might check it out if I have time.

In turn, I recommend the website I mentioned if you want gather an understanding on the other perspective

[ZenMonkey]

@Simon Zackrisson I think Ida's recommendations are great. Forks over Knifes is a fantastic movie.

What really sticks out for me is that Dr. Esselstyn cures heart disease, diabetes and other diseases with a whole food vegan diet. I never heard that about a LCHF diet. That is what convinces me.

And about the food we ate 10.000 years ago. We evolved much longer on plants. Our digestive system still has the length of herbivores. Carnivore have a shorter one because you don't want to have meat too long in your digestive system because it gets to acid. We also have the teeth for plants and instincts etc. etc.

For the species it only matters if an individual can procreate. So if a human can live long enough on meat to procreate this is a win for the human species but it might not be for the individual. So in cold areas it was an advantage to eat meat because it gave humans the possibility to survive there. But today we have a choice and can eat what also is most benfical for the individual.

On top we just feel better with carbs in our fuel. You can try this. You feel much more energetic on a High Carb diet.

[Saf_Raf]

I've always flerted with the idea of vegetarianism and since I've started the ovo-lacto-vegetarian diet a few months ago, I feel much better and lost considerable pounds, the well being comes not only by the diet itself, but due to the philosofy behind it, as many proclaim as the main booster to remain in it and this is my case too, I had some relapses eating meat two or three times, but it was good because only reassured myself to remain on the diet, in parts to the difficult digestion and also remorse, hope to have someday the will power to go to a vegan lifestyle, but it's too soon yet.

* Sorry for the occasional mispelling, english is not my native idiom.  

[Alexxx]

Pescetarianism (semi-vegetarianism).

Eating a fish 3-4 times per week might be very healthy habit.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Alexxx

[Matej]

Not eating meat is a big decession and it impacts your life quite a lot. I am vegetarian beause I feel the importance of the decession. But I don't feel that way with veganism. Not eating meat is important but being against all animal products seem to me like an overkill. As a vegan you wouldn't eat even honey. That is just completely different mindset. I don't eat meat for sake of the animals. With milking, lying eggs or making honey I don't see that big of a problem. Sure the animals are still treated poorly but to become vegan I would need to see health benefits for my body. There are some but for the price of making much more strict diet.

TL:DR version: I see a point in not eating meat, not so much in excluding the rest of the animal products.

Recommended book: Eating Animals by Jonathan Safran Foer - 0316069884 (ISBN13: 9780316069885)

[Dhana Choko]

41 minutes ago, Matej said:

Sure the animals are still treated poorly but to become vegan I would need to see health benefits for my body. There are some but for the price of making much more strict diet.

But you cannot know the benefits personally if you have never tried. Many people are shocked how different they feel after going vegan from vegetarian diets. There is no way to tell anyone what benefits they will experience, because everyone has a different vegetarian diet to start with. However, research does show that when comparing vegetarians and vegans, vegans beat vegetarians in all cancer studies on being the healthiest and having less likely to have breast, prostate and many other cancers. I always recommend people trying to be vegan for week or two and see if they feel better. Most people do (if they eat highly varied mostly vegetables diet with moderate amount of fat and no processed food).

[Daphne]

@Matej If you want to know more about the health benefits of not eating cheese and milk, things like that. I recommend you watching the docu Forks Over Knives. Easy to find on Netflix but also YouTube I guess.

[ZenMonkey]

On 15.2.2016 at 10:56 AM, Alexxx said:

Pescetarianism (semi-vegetarianism).

Eating a fish 3-4 times per week might be very healthy habit.

The problem with fish is this: if you eat fish from the sea you eat all the shitty chemicals and other stuff that floats nowadays in our oceans. If you eat fish from aqua cultures you eat all the shitty antibiotics they feed the fish.

And even then I doubt that fish is healthy because of the animal protein which is just too acid when we diguest it.

[ZenMonkey]

21 hours ago, Matej said:

Not eating meat is a big decession and it impacts your life quite a lot. I am vegetarian beause I feel the importance of the decession. But I don't feel that way with veganism. Not eating meat is important but being against all animal products seem to me like an overkill. As a vegan you wouldn't eat even honey. That is just completely different mindset. I don't eat meat for sake of the animals. With milking, lying eggs or making honey I don't see that big of a problem. Sure the animals are still treated poorly but to become vegan I would need to see health benefits for my body. There are some but for the price of making much more strict diet.

TL:DR version: I see a point in not eating meat, not so much in excluding the rest of the animal products.

Recommended book: Eating Animals by Jonathan Safran Foer - 0316069884 (ISBN13: 9780316069885)

 

In my home country Germany there are 45 million (!) little baby chicks killed every year right after birth. (don’t know the stats of other countries) The reason: they don’t need male chicken for the egg production.

There are also tons of calfs killed every year because they are not needed for the milk production.

Cows produce lots of CO2 and have a huge impact on the climate change. Rainforest is harvested to grow food for them. For cows in the milk as well as in the dairy industry.

I don’t want judge your way of eating. I just want to say if you are vegetarian because of ethical reasons you should truly consider veganism.

And if honey stops you from being vegan you should consider being vegan and eating honey or being vegetarian and don’t eat egg and dairy. Once you get into it it becomes very easy and won’t be strict

If you are interested a tiny bit I recommend the movies:

Cowspiracy

Earthlings

Forks Over Knifes

Edited February 16, 2016 by ZenMonkey
Quoted same quote 2 times

[Matej]

@Dhana Choko @Daphne Processed foods are a bad joke. I'm cooking and making salads and all the good things.

I did watch Forks over Knives, after reading through some posts in here and I learnt something. Still I think strict vegan is overkill. You might say that gluten causes various deseases and health problems so you shouldn't eat it. And with cooking and baking (and frying for that matter) you kill vitamins and important parts of nutrition so you should eat only raw. I'm pretty sure those are valid reasons to change one's diet but the point remains, unless you have serious health conditioning, this is not worth the effort, time and money you have to put into it.

[Dhana Choko]

1 hour ago, Matej said:

I'm pretty sure those are valid reasons to change one's diet but the point remains, unless you have serious health conditioning, this is not worth the effort, time and money you have to put into it.

Many people disagree with this. Personally I think my life has gotten so much better after I started to pay attention to what I eat. I feel better, I do not have any of the health issues I used to have (acne, bloated body, extra 10kg of weight, higher blood pressure, worse blood test results, feeling unenergetic, skin looked grey etc.). If I just think about how much negative energy all of these things used to give me, I feel so much lighter, happier and I am healthier (by blood test results and feeling more energetic), so I think it is definitely worth it. It is not even that much work, cooking takes as long as it used to and I still have to go to supermarket and spend money on food, but I just choose products that give me things instead of taking from me. The process is still the same. 

Also, on personal developmental front, this has been so beneficial. It has done wonders for my psyche to get rid of addictions to sugar, meat products, milk products etc. It takes so much self-confidence and self-discipline to get over your addictions and I am so proud that I can walk in a supermarket and be completely in control of my food choices and choose foods that are actually good for me and not from the state of being addicted to something and making it okey by mental arguments, when in fact the main reason why I ate all these products was purely addiction based. I don't want that food groups control my life and my addictions make choices for me. With addictions, I mean that I could not see myself before living a happy life without certain products or without eating meat or milk products etc. and I could not give it up - and when I thought about it, I thought it was insane! That these products on shelves of supermarkets, controlled my life in away that I could not see my self living without them. I was never overweight and I never stuffed myself with food or anything like that - I think my relationship with food was actually much better than most people even when I ate meat and milk products and I still consider I was extremely addicted to some foods. Now I am free of it and I feel so much better psychologically cause I had to become strong to get over those and on the plus side, I am much better cook than I used to be, I eat better and more delcious food than before AND this food is good for my body, I lose weight and my skin looks amazing and I feel energetic. So many benefits with getting over addictions.

[Markus]

From what I know, for the general well-being of the planet, veganism is better than vegetarianism, since you don't consume anything from factory-farmed cows or chickens. If you care about the ethics of animal consumption, same answer.

Health wise, strict vegetarianism or veganism is not necessary, though one should consume less animal products and considerably more fruit and vegetables than most people do.

[otoumie]

Thanks everyone for giving me all those intresting feedbacks!   I´ve been going through all your answers and took in concideration every advices. That´s why it took time for me to reply for everyone. I came to the conclusion that veganism was the best solution for both the planet and the Health in many different aspects. What maked me choose veganism and not vegetarian is because of the effects of dairy Products on the body and for the ethical and ecological effects.  Many people Thinks that veganism is only for rabbits and for emotional persons, which isn´t true! You´ll have on the other side to seriously study/practice this Lifestyle Close enough to adapt this way to eat in your quotidian.  I mean, you have to know for exemple where to find enough calcium and protein from non-dairy produts. Still, I Think personally that this is one of the most intresting parts because you´re rediscovering what you´re putting inside of your body. The cons like @Matej mentioned would then be the Health conditioning of a person and that it can be dangerous for some if you don´t eat enough of certain nutriments.. there is certainly more cons but for the moment I have more pros.

I´m Learning more about the nutriments and the benifits from each of them for the body. I haven´t practiced that much on vegan recipes though . For Those reasons I have since yesterday started a 30 Days challenge where I will test new vegan recipes and study more about this Lifestyle philosophy. My goal is to avoid milk, cheese, White bread, eggs, and meat. The most challenging for me I Think will be to avoid meat and dairy Products when I´m invited by family members... Does anyone have advices for this kind of situation?

@Neill Bolton Your commentar was convincing. I find it important to Think both from an ethical and ecological Point of view and you did it very well! I was even more convinced after looking at Cowspiracy, I was choked to see how much metan from cows production compared to CO2 were actually leading to global warming. As for how Little this issue was controversied... Thanks again for giving me a higher level of consciousness about biodiversity. 

@Ida Thanks Ida for making veganism more clear when it comes to the nutriments. I´ve read more about it now and I´ll probably buy some supplements like you said, and probably some vegan book, but for the moment I find enough recipes and ideas on internet. To stop eating meat isn´t hard for me since there is only vegetarian food in my high school and also because I was vegetarian when I was Little. The most difficult will be dairy Products because they are the basic for so many recipes. That´s why I´m trying the 30 Days challenge.   (I´ll probably look at fork of knives) Have you Always been vegan by the way?

@ZenMonkey Thanks for the hystorical perspective , very intresting! It makes more sence to eat vegan.

@Dhana Choko Your personal story and view on veganism really motivates me! I can find msyelf in your personal development Before you started eating vegan. I have for exemples acne problems and I have Heard that dairy Products, chocolate and sugar increase not only the weight and other Health issue problems but I was never really enough aware about the effects of them. Also, since eating was for a long time (still a Little) a way for me to feel less stress, dairy Products and chocolate became my addictions. The more I wanted to loose weight, the more I regretted the moment I did eat snack , the more I felt stressed, the more I did eat those bad Foods... A Vicious circle really. But now that I´m becoming more conscient, this Vicious circle slowly dísapears. If I Think more about each ingredients and how they impact my body, it´s like meditation of what I eat and I feel more in Control of myself... Of course, I´m just a beginner and I´m still struggling with my addictions. Still, I can already feel the difference in my mind.

Edited February 21, 2016 by otoumie