Why would anyone NOT get shaktipat or use 5-Meo Dmt

[Javfly33]

Enlightment doesn´t take usually just one mistical experience.

Much Probably you won´t get enlightened by shaktipat or a psychedelic. That´s why sober, boring methods exist. Because is not only about the experience but also about aligning yourself with truth and of course raise your state of consciousness for hours, daily, not just one time.

[AlphaAbundance]

@GodDesireOnlyLove

Ok so

• Not mainstream - not that many people know about it not prevalent - considered "dark"

What do u mean by "dark"?

@tenta

Ok so 

• Illegality
• Difficulty to source
• Risk of pyschedelics?

[Zanoni]

This is a interesting topic in a theory, when someone has a enlightening experience, the ego will detach itself from the objective or relative world and attach itself onto the enlightened experience. When enough awakenings happen, the ego will be solidly identified with the transcendental. The psychological suffering will be hidden as the ego only perceives the transcendental realm which has no beginning and end compared to being attached to its material ownership which can break down any minute and create a roller coaster of pleasure and pain. So theoretically any enlightening experience whether it is caused "organically" or by a drug can cause the ego to detach itself from the physical world and identify itself with the transcendental if a transcendental experience is realized.

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Zanoni

[AlphaAbundance]

@Javfly33 Valid point, mostly for Pyschedelics though shaktipat is done consistently until the person reaches perceived full enlightenment. However, also for pyschedelics it seems that your baseline of consciousness rises from the one you had before the peak experience.

I don't think that once you are already enlightened (or in general) you require practices to align yourself with truth, do you? I dont think that you even need them to embody enlightenment either. Also does one need to be in the action of doing practices (in raising of your consciousness) to "hold in place" a higher level of consciousness?

Edited April 26, 2020 by AlphaAbundance

[Nak Khid]

9 minutes ago, AlphaAbundance said:

 

@Nak Khid

That's true your right I dont recall if Leo or other pyschedelic users have said that they are enlightened or just had awakening experiences. However, I believe Martin Ball claims to have full enlightenment.

That would be a start but first see if you can find on youtube or some website if you can verify he claims that or maybe somebody else know if he says that for sure and where 

He said in 2016 he had been taking 5 Meo for 8 years 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Nak Khid

[AlphaAbundance]

@Zanoni Interesting is this identification with the transcendence same as what is considered full enlightenment (or elimination of identiciation)? Or is it like a sort of pseudo enlightenment?

[AlphaAbundance]

@Nak Khid

He is apparently in permanent nondual awareness but it seems it may have been aided with Ayuhasha, aswell as been a unique experience to him

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by AlphaAbundance

[Zanoni]

@AlphaAbundance It is considered enlightenment by some. Many great spiritual teacher are living decades in this state. I think it is called in zen as the third rank of Tozan in which there are five ranks. And there is still a advancement after that, as there comes a time when the ego dis-identifies itself with  the transcendental and shatters into million pieces and the relative comes back into awareness . Remember hearing Genpo roshi talking about his experience and calling it  "falling from grace" and i think Osho while he was a public figure had a similar painful fall.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Zanoni

[Visionary]

The fastest way is certainly not the easiest way. You need to integrate the shadow. 

And yes some meditation skills are crucial for this process.

[Javfly33]

14 minutes ago, AlphaAbundance said:

@Javfly33 Valid point, mostly for Pyschedelics though shaktipat is done consistently until the person reaches perceived full enlightenment. However, also for pyschedelics it seems that your baseline of consciousness rises from the one you had before the peak experience.

I don't think that once you are already enlightened (or in general) you require practices to align yourself with truth, do you? I dont think that you even need them to embody enlightenment either. Also does one need to be in the action of doing practices (in raising of your consciousness) to "hold in place" a higher level of consciousness?

As far as I´m concerned the general definition of enlightment is when you are "done". No more practices needed.

Until you reach that you need to work your way up.

Yeah Depending on how big the realization was your baseline of consciousness will raise , but this will happen either with psychedelics with any other practice, but again one realization usually is not enough.

And all of this information is of course just guessing, this work is so deeply misterious, that you need to verify for yourself what will at the end will work for you. You can take Leo´s advice that has done +50 trips of 5-Meo? Maybe that will be enough maybe not, he even says just doing psychedelics won´t enlighten you, but again the definition of enlightment which he has vs what you have will differ enourmously. 

 

[AlphaAbundance]

@Zanoni Interesting, thanks for bringing that up hadn't really considered the ego identifying with the transcendent as a stage of enlightenment.

[AlphaAbundance]

@Visionary

Fastest may not be the easiest but it is certainly the best path. It's simply frontloading the effort. 

Actually let me take a few steps back, how is using 5Meo or getting shaktipat not easy? It seems certainly easier than meditating as a practice for hours

Ima take a look into integrating the shadow. Could you give me a summary/preview?

[AlphaAbundance]

@Javfly33 This is off topic, but personally I hold the perspective that enlightenment never ends. For reality to be infinite, it seems that there would have to be infinite levels and dimensions of enlightenment.

If one can have an increase from both a practice and psychedelics, why would someone choose a practice when psychedelics are more efficient? A realization in approx. 30 min-12 hours or one in 1 year- 40 years (Even if it's not a realization every time --- It seems to me odds go to psychedelics)

Hmmmm you have fair points, psychedelics may just be an enhancement or auxiliary to real enlightenment work.... Maybe even a distraction....

Edited April 26, 2020 by AlphaAbundance

[Visionary]

Yes, shakitpat will trigger lotsa lotsa ego death cycles. And they can be incredibly dark as this load needs to come to the surface to be integrated. Healing is just inevitable. And these methods will give you just that. Without any cultivated awareness through meditation you better not even think about these methods. 

Transmissions are btw more effective when there is a certain openness in the individual (that required a less contracted energetic state that 99.9 percent of the beginners don't have).

In either way a sober cultivation of awareness (or rather the falling away of contractions/ego) is needed. These are tools to help you. If you want these tools to be effective you need to do the work. And when they seem to be effective that is where your "cultivated skills" should enter the scene.

There is no way to hide from your core wounds or self-sabotage on the path.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Visionary

[Aaron p]

1 hour ago, Nak Khid said:

Here we have have a video, in their own words,  the enlightenment stories of 

Eckhart Tolle
Adyashanti’
Mooji
Rupert Spira
Sadhguru

None of them says  Practices + psychedelics > Practices

Some of them say psychedelics are a distraction from becoming enlightened but that doesn't mean it's correct

Are any of them enlightened?   There is no precise agreed upon definition of what enlightenment is or test to determine if someone is enlightened. 
There is no way to prove that enlightenment means anything other than a feeling that  person has that they are enlightened and then other people saying they are. 

There may or may not be something more to it. 

I would just be careful because usually when someone who is considered a "master" says that "psychedelics are a distraction" what this sometimes actually means is "psychedelics are pulling them to deeper levels of consciousness and distracting them from their beliefs and ideologies of what enlightenment is."

[AlphaAbundance]

Well said ?

Is it more that it won't work in the first place or that it will work faster or work "better" if someone is doing practices?

If it is not necessary to have the practices to completely become enlightened with shaktipat it becomes more or less whether the practices have a return of effort on the extra sessions being done to compensate for not doing the work? Like maybe 6 months of consistent Shaktipat w/ practices to 1 year of consistent shaktipat w/ no practices. Its difficult to say if doing the practices are really worth it. Especially depending on what level the practices are being done? (2 Min, 10 Min, 30 Min, 1 Hour, 3 Hour or 10 Hour meditation?) Maybe I'm wrong though --- this is definitely making me check my laziness

Edited April 26, 2020 by AlphaAbundance

[Nak Khid]

40 minutes ago, AlphaAbundance said:

@Nak Khid

He is apparently in permanent nondual awareness but it seems it may have been aided with Ayuhasha, aswell as been a unique experience to him

 

did you see this thread:

 

[AlphaAbundance]

@Nak Khid Concerning and interesting

So

• With consistent heavy use of psychedelics there is a possibility, maybe even a probability that you can have damage to the the body and your health

Might Leo face similar problems? Time will tell

[Javfly33]

34 minutes ago, AlphaAbundance said:

@Javfly33 This is off topic, but personally I hold the perspective that enlightenment never ends. For reality to be infinite, it seems that there would have to be infinite levels and dimensions of enlightenment.

If one can have an increase from both a practice and psychedelics, why would someone choose a practice when psychedelics are more efficient? A realization in approx. 30 min-12 hours or one in 1 year- 40 years (Even if it's not a realization every time --- It seems to me odds go to psychedelics)

Hmmmm you have fair points, psychedelics may just be an enhancement or auxiliary to real enlightenment work.... Maybe even a distraction....

I call enlightment as the death of the ego in everyday life. A clear understanding, a certain consciousness levels where the ego is seeing as what it is, not as just your true identity/truth. 

Of course realization comes with certain profound level understanding of reality. But I think we can say that "enlightment" is not the definition of complete understanding of reality, but rather a certain trascendence from it.

I think psychedelics are great and withouth them I wouldn´t be where I am . I just think not everyone is ready to just take the psychedelic path and start tripping regularly non-stop until reaching enlightment, it just too hardcore, too intense. Ego backlash is a real thing, with psychedelics you can traumatize yourself if you aren´t careful. The ego usually asks for a break if there´s been much transformation/mindfuck. And that is totally normal and Ok. For most people there´s a lot of integraiton and shadow work/purification while doing the psychedelic path. This means sometimes stopping to catch a breath, start a sober practice, integrate, discover...etc. I think you get my point.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Javfly33

[Nak Khid]

9 minutes ago, AlphaAbundance said:

@Nak Khid Concerning and interesting

So

• With consistent heavy use of psychedelics there is a possibility, maybe even a probability that you can have damage to the the body and your health

Might Leo face similar problems? Time will tell

Leo talk about some physical problems he is dealing with. I think chronic fatigue was one but I don't think he thinks it's related to the psychedelics but he can correct me if I am wrong.