so compulsive thinkers are doomed spiritually?

[NoN-RaTiOnAL]

Hi so.. yeah
are super neurotic people just wont be able to induce enlightenment expirience because of the inability to concentrate for a long time? 
whats the alternative than? how do neurotic people go about spiritually developing themselves?
 

[Moreira]

dDterminism is wrong. Everybody can change, thats neuroplasticity. Even a autist can overcome his mental problems and find enlightenment.

[mandyjw]

Having an abnormal or painful thinking pattern may cause you to question and watch your thoughts more, it will be like having a fire under your arse to motivate you to do so. On top of that, "neurotic" or "compulsive thinkers" are beliefs, thoughts and judgements themselves of oneself or other people. Enlightenment is the transcendence of these, in more ways than one. Thoughts aren't owned, there's no one to have them.

[Aaron p]

Actually no, id go as far to say that psychotic thinkers are actually more inclined to find meditation. I can speak confidently of this because I have lived it.

Psychotics usually are tormented with their inherited minds and those with a weak spirit never find out what is wrong with them they just give into it and suffer continuously until they are...dead. This kind of suffering usually motivates the individual to find a source of healing much much more than the average person. Also there is a very interesting link between having no thoughts and having too many thoughts. 

I heard a quote one time; "The waters that the psychotic drown in, are the same water that the mystic swims in." 

I don't know who said it but it stuck with me. I have a feeling that holding the logical mind in meditation for long periods of time gives rise to The Mind, the greater Mind. I suppose the duality between thoughts and no-thoughts must be overcome

Edited April 25, 2020 by Aaron p

[electroBeam]

I'm a massive compulsive thinker.

fully breathe in an out very fast 120 times, then fully breathe out and rest. Do 4 rounds of this, that will blow all those compulsive thoughts away live a tornado.

P.S. its meant to be uncomfortable and cause you to be dizzy.

Edited April 25, 2020 by electroBeam

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, NoN-RaTiOnAL said:

Hi so.. yeah
are super neurotic people just wont be able to induce enlightenment expirience because of the inability to concentrate for a long time? 

Absolutely not. These are misunderstandings at play; super neurotic people, induce enlightenment, inability to concentrate. 

3 hours ago, NoN-RaTiOnAL said:

whats the alternative than? how do neurotic people go about spiritually developing themselves?

Understanding themselves.

[Javfly33]

24 minutes ago, Aaron p said:

 

I heard a quote one time; "The waters that the psychotic drown in, are the same water that the mystic swims in." 

 

I almost sure that phrase is more related to Spiritual Experiences. 

Meaning, what what crazyness the mystic might experience he is able to let go of try to contextualize in his mind and surrender/flow with the new perspective, meanwhile the psychotic can´t handle the minduck, rejects it and it ends up going crazy because of it.

But I might be wrong and it could be actually more related to what you say 

 

[NoN-RaTiOnAL]

53 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Absolutely not. These are misunderstandings at play; super neurotic people, induce enlightenment, inability to concentrate

alright. can you elaborate? as far as my understanding goes elightenment could happen in a state of deep concentration (according to yogic philosophy) which leads to absorption. and people who are thinking copulsively just cant get to this point. I've been meditating for a couple of years now and, although my awareness of my thoughts grew for sure. im nowhere any closer to being deeply concentrated than i was when i started. 
which makes me wonder you know... is this for everybody? 
 

 

58 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Understanding themselves.

agree. yet again, i find experiences beyond my ego mind impossible to reach just with deeper understanding. im just thinking all the time. 
what do you suggest? just go on with the same technique for 20 years? 

 

 

1 hour ago, electroBeam said:

fully breathe in an out very fast 120 times, then fully breathe out and rest. Do 4 rounds of this, that will blow all those compulsive thoughts away live a tornado

thanks. ive tried hyperventilation before and it does help a bit. ill keep experimenting with that. 

[wavydude]

4 hours ago, NoN-RaTiOnAL said:

are super neurotic people just wont be able to induce enlightenment expirience because of the inability to concentrate for a long time? 

Any person won't be able to induce enlightenment, enlightenment = no person.

[Nahm]

49 minutes ago, NoN-RaTiOnAL said:

alright. can you elaborate? as far as my understanding goes elightenment could happen

Enlightenment only points to what is already the case, who you already are, that which is holding beliefs to the contrary. 

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in a state of deep concentration (according to yogic philosophy) which leads to absorption. and people who are thinking copulsively just cant get to this point. I've been meditating for a couple of years now and, although my awareness of my thoughts grew for sure. im nowhere any closer to being deeply concentrated than i was when i started. 
which makes me wonder you know... is this for everybody? 

One thinking compulsively is already amply aware of thinking. In directing (focusing, attention, concentrating, shifting, etc) on perception & feeling, thinking indirectly “stops”. You experience more of what you focus on. You’ve been focusing on thoughts. Inspect the relationship between thoughts & feeling in direct experience, now (vs past & future), by writing about how you feel, now, on paper. There is nothing to ‘figure out’, there is much letting go that can be done, and understanding naturally arises in that space. 

Quote

agree. yet again, i find experiences beyond my ego mind impossible to reach just with deeper understanding. im just thinking all the time. 
what do you suggest? just go on with the same technique for 20 years? 

All that can be said to be ‘beyond the ego mind’, you’re creating. Let that belief go as well, experience what is prior to. Write down some of these thoughts, and inspect them one word at a time. You’ll find ‘write offs’, words you’re using which cover up opportunities to inspect the relationship between thought & feeling. 

You are already the greatest feeling possible. Ruminating thought is thinking which is trying to bring about better feeling. Everything you want, including no mind & enlightenment, is because you believe you’ll feel better once you obtain it. This is the very thinking which is false, and keeps the mind in overdrive. Feeling can never be thought. Feeling can not even be felt. Feeling arises naturally when thought is (indirectly) let go. Misunderstanding makes it difficult to let thinking go, for fear of not feeling better if you don’t ‘figure it out’, but the fear is in thinking & labeling feeling, fear is not feeling. Fear is thoughts about oneself & reality which are false, feeling tells you so. It behooves one to listen to infinite intelligence (the body, feeling, silence). No thought will ever be feeling. No thing will ever feel better than self, as all things are self. Self veils itself with “things”. This is what is meant by misunderstanding. 

 

[Nak Khid]

10 minutes ago, NoN-RaTiOnAL said:

 as far as my understanding goes enlightenment could happen in a state of deep concentration (according to yogic philosophy) which leads to absorption. and people who are thinking compulsively just cant get to this point. I've been meditating for a couple of years now and, although my awareness of my thoughts grew for sure. im nowhere any closer to being deeply concentrated than i was when i started. 
which makes me wonder you know... is this for everybody? 
 

Two major types of meditation are concentration meditation aimed at tranquility 
and awareness meditation aimed at awareness in order seeing things clearly (insight meditation).
Which is a higher state is debated and subjective

In meditation you remove yourself from outside stimuli and sit still.  By excluding outside stimuli if you are a compulsive thinker by awareness meditation you can become familiar with your mental habits  and over time learn not to react to them, letting thoughts rise and fall quickly without clinging to them as much.  You might pay attention to your breath while doing this and you would notice the irregularity of each breath, sounds in the room, thoughts, physical sensations.  You become highly attuned to the present moment and it's impermanence. 

I assume this is what you  already do.   Some  would say if you keep doing this,
it's a higher form of meditation and it will reward you if you keep doing it.  At the same time you can learn some cognitive therapy to recognize negative thought patterns, notice them in mediation and then realize how they are distortions an exaggerations of reality  not seeing things as they are. 

Others might say concentration meditation leads to a higher state.  You can do both you don't have to choose. 

But if you are going to do concentration meditation instead of  being aware of every unique thing going on, you might instead count the breaths in repetitive sets.   And in doing various forms of this meditation separately, gaze with open eyes at a candle flame or with closed eyes repeat a word or phrase over and over again ( often meaningless, just used as an object to focus on) .   Your mind might wander put you have selected an object to focus on and this selection reminds you to keep returning to it.   This is a repetitious activity. If you expect enlightenment that expectation will be a distraction.  Almost more important than this is that remove multi-tasking as much as possible from your life and do written tracking of your progress.  In the previous day your write down some time slots for things you will do.  So you do these things and after the time period ends you write down a brief comment on the amount of distractions you had.   You don't beat yourself up over the distractions. You record them in in doing so over time they will lessen. This will be a repetitious, therapeutic routine done over a long period of time.   

Enlightenment will come when it wants to , next week or twenty years for now. 
Right now you need to deal with the compulsive thinking.   Enlightenment is far down the road after you start to reduce the compulsive thinking for a while and you can do this by trying a few methods out and then dedicating to one or two for a long period of time.  
You have realized concentration is one of you weaknesses and that it is a useful tool but it will take a lot of work to get it. 
There is no way around that and there are two types.  One is the meditation form where you focus on one thing, a word, a flame, or count of breaths.
There are distractions that come along a way but they will come and go.   You have committed a regular time for this and you have established on object of concentration you can keep returning to for that period. 
The second, just as important or more so is that this is applied to time blocks to do tasks in your life where you stick to doing one task at a time and this might involved multiple different parts  but that is accepted. Other tasks must not be done at the same time and if you can sometimes shut the phone off.    Reduce distracting habits but don't worry about eliminating them entirely. 
The point is you have to focus on concentration in all aspects of your life not just in meditation and task concentration is a different type then the meditation form and is very practical. Each form enhances the other. 
Thinking about enlightenment now is putting the cart before the horse and if you focus on that without having made significant progress in concentration  it will manifest as a distraction. 
Enlightenment may come next month or in fifty years. It comes when it wants to so if you accept that and improve your concentration you will be closer to it.  But that is hard work, like doing 100 push ups.  It's exercise.
But it's rewards are many. It's an essential tool 

 

 

 

[NoN-RaTiOnAL]

2 hours ago, Nak Khid said:

Two major types of meditation are concentration meditation aimed at tranquility 
and awareness meditation aimed at awareness in order seeing things clearly (insight meditation).
Which is a higher state is debated and subjective

thanks for the detailed explanation buddy. yeah thats what i do, i just dont get any results as far as cocentration goes.. 
yep maybe i should consider some 5meo :-)

[Leo Gura]

You have to understand how bad it is. Most people will never reach enlightenment. Especially so for neurotic people.

The solution is serious concentration practice.

You can listen to all the Ekhart Tolle videos, but it won't do jack for you unless you discipline your mind.

The people who tell you its easy are the ones who already have the focus and discipline naturally. But that ain't you. You will have to work 10x as hard as them.

[NoN-RaTiOnAL]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The solution is serious concentration practice.

i see.. you suggest plain old meditation techniques or is there maybe something that could help boost this training? 
have you heard about mind mirror? 

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, NoN-RaTiOnAL said:

i see.. you suggest plain old meditation techniques or is there maybe something that could help boost this training? 
have you heard about mind mirror? 

Mindfulness with labeling, pure concentration, or Kriya yoga.

You can literally just sit and concentrate on an object for 60 min a day. Doesn't matter what it is.

[LfcCharlie4]

Might not help too much, but try a dopamine detox. 
 

Literally a day of nothing but meditation, water, writing and sleeping, google it. 
 

And, then try to reduce your exposure to things that spike your dopamine hugely and unnaturally. For example, scrolling through social media for hours, porn, hours of video games etc. 
 

Im NOT saying these things are bad, however, excess use of these things can lead to concentration issues and needing stimulation. At least it did for me. 
 

So, now my phone is off when working, porn habit has been kicked, and social media is limited to after work and weekends, same for video games/ TV/ movies etc. And I’ll do a quarterly dopamine detox  

Its really helped me, the practices Leo mentioned are of course also amazing. 

[VeganAwake]

9 hours ago, NoN-RaTiOnAL said:

Hi so.. yeah
are super neurotic people just wont be able to induce enlightenment expirience because of the inability to concentrate for a long time? 
whats the alternative than? how do neurotic people go about spiritually developing themselves?
 

Who is neurotic?

Is this belief in a neurotic person having trouble inducing enlightenment anything more than just another thought arising.

The question is WHO is thinking the thoughts, where is that one?

Where in the body is this so-called neurotic individual located?

Have a look...❤

 

 

[NoN-RaTiOnAL]

5 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Is this belief in a neurotic person having trouble inducing enlightenment anything more than just another thought arising.

i read the spiritual literature aswell buddy.. im well aware of all that your saying and it has no relation to what im referring to. 
im not getting annoyed or dissapointed of myself for not being concentrated enough. im just admitting 2 facts:
1. im a neurotic person
2. concentration practices ive tried for several years now havnt helped at all
and im asking are there any other alternatives people heard of that could possibly aid in this process?
 if not - ill keep going with what im already doing hoping it will improve in time. 

 

[Haumea2018]

9 hours ago, NoN-RaTiOnAL said:

Hi so.. yeah
are super neurotic people just wont be able to induce enlightenment expirience because of the inability to concentrate for a long time? 
whats the alternative than? how do neurotic people go about spiritually developing themselves?
 

It has less to do with flawlessly executing a technique or practice and more to do with beliefs about yourself and reality.  

You can get enlightened easy, you're just identifying with beliefs that tell you it's hard and you're not facing your fears.

You have to go in the direction of your fears, but in order to do that you have to get very honest about what your fears are.

Most people don't want to go there -- it's way out of their comfort zone, too scary and painful.

Neurotic people worry about bad things happening, are attached to certain (egoic) agendas and generally think they have some kind of magical ability to predict the future (i.e. "something bad's going to happen, I just know it, so I'm going to worry about it.")  Or they focus on the past, beat themselves up for having made errors and constantly imagine having done it differently.  Or they harbor grudges and grievances against others that they refuse to let go.

What's the common denominator in all of those? 

Inability to live in the present: to let go of the past, to trust life ("The Lord is my shepherd...") and to let go of unrealistic expectations about oneself and one's abilities.  Inability to forgive oneself, to realize one isn't perfect and to make constructive use of one's errors in life.  

In others words, to let go.

You don't need a perfect concentration technique to let go.

You can just decide that it's too painful to hold on and swap the suffering of neurosis for the wondrous uncertainty of being present.

What's the point I'm getting to here?

Think about it very carefully.

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are super neurotic people just wont be able to induce enlightenment expirience because of the inability to concentrate for a long time? 

This question arises out of the perfectionism of neurosis.

The answer is that you do not need perfect concentration abilities.

This is the mind setting an impossible or unrealistic goal...and then choosing to do nothing because it's impossible.

That's not necessary.

Simply get out of your comfort zone in WHICHEVER WAY is suitable to you, and keep inching in that direction.

 

 

 

[Enlightenment]

@NoN-RaTiOnAL Try these techniques:

Especially dropping mantra in the mind thing