How Are You Communicating On This Forum??? (Mind Blowing Model) (Intention Of Commu..

[lmfao]

I made a post which talks about this topic of why people talk past one another on this forum and communicate differently , in reference to my above message

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by lmfao

[Virgo]

You guys are making no sense to me. If you are facing problems that's a good time to both agree that you lack knowledge of Spiral Dynamics. Iv read the book once, and it requires intelligence and System Thinking to really understand it. The reason actualized.org is self-improvement from all stages. Actualized.org itself is YELLOW cuz it accepts all other stages and all them Express themselves and it trying to elevate them. What's the purpose of your model? Is it to help yourself and other ppl in above stages to realize their current stage of development? Or is it just for fun? This model will not fully work in here, cuz all Actualized.org should be based on spiritual Dynamics alone, which is not. Think more deeply and improve this model maybe is useful. Also read System Thinking and Spiral Dynamics more. 

[The observer]

@UnconsciousHuman Okay dude. I truly get it now. But I still don't understand why a stage THREE would be focused on debunking others and/or playing up their self-image. I understand that you're suggesting that it's irrelevant to SD, but I am really convinced that this specific developmental line is in accordance with the original SD model.

To put it in another way, people differ in their intentions/approaches at communicating with others according to the developmental line you're suggesting. The least developed intention/approach is ONE which is about extreme self-preservation, and the most developed intention/approach is FIVE which is about self-expansion. And the stages between are shades and degrees for this developmental line.

Alright, so stage THREE is supposedly more expansive than stages ONE and TWO, and therefore it's less about self-preservation and more about objective truth, in its own unique ways, of course. Stage THREE sees the limitations and traps of stages ONE and TWO. Thus, I think it is valid to say that stage THREE is more focused on ways which are halfway between self-preservation and self-expansion, which emerge from seeing the limitations of the previous stages and how unaligned they are with the flow of reality. So, what emerges right after conforming, belonging, following arbitrary rules, and preserving the norms? In my view, the debunking others intentionality/approach fits more into stage ONE, because it's extremely focused on self-preservation. On the other hand, the playing up of self-image intentionality/approach fits into every stage with an odd number i.e. ONE, THREE, and FIVE, because those stages are individualistic by nature. What I'm suggesting is that there gets created a mix of ONE and TWO that makes THREE what it is. So, what do you get when you blend these two together? ??

On 24/04/2020 at 0:48 AM, UnconsciousHuman said:

ONE: Your intention is to establish a power dynamic where you are dominant and go about it in an impulsive manner. (Trolling, belittling, hating etc...)

TWO: Your intention is to conform, belong, follow arbitrary rules, and preserve the norms.

At THREE, you want to have power and rule according to certain norms at the same time. It's like the epitome of TWO, like if you were in a society where everyone was conforming, belonging, etc... but lacking leadership, you'd emerge to become that leader. Yes, playing up your self-image plays a crucial role, but again, I don't think it's one of the essential characteristics for this stage in this specific developmental line. I think the best way to find that combination would be by creating a system of norms which guarantees fulfilling your individualistic tendencies and desires, like logic/rationality. See, logic/rationality claims that you can verify things for yourself without conforming to others by using certain tools that are based on certain norms. Logic/rationality guarantees you having the certainty of TWO, and the dominance/control of ONE. What do you think about that?

Edited April 25, 2020 by The observer

[UnconsciousHuman]

@The observer

In the case with this model/facet Im isolating only the intention of communication or in other words, the kneejerk reaction to communicate in a certain way.

Please read the following diligently as I know it has the potential to transform your understanding of Spiral Dynamics.

When I look at Spiral Dynamics Im not looking at the shift in values that are happening, Im looking at the fundamental emotional kneejerk reaction that causes them. This kneejerk reaction is simply SELF vs OTHER or RIGID vs EXPANDING. This is what Spiral Dynamics is tracking. Not the actual “values” in and of themselves but rather, what the manifestations of the kneejerk reactions are. 

Orange is a kneejerk reaction to “SELF”. 

In relevance to “Intention Of Communication” Orange’s intention is to assert itself, now how it does that is more advanced than the stages below so for example when stage RED/ONE intention asserts it self, it does so in an aggressive manner, while stage ORANGE/THREE does it in a more calm “prove you wrong” manner.

On the Spiral Dynamics Value facet, the so called “values” like rationalism, proof, logic, understanding etc... of stage ORANGE immerge simply because the stage before was dogmatic and non-logical (BLUE). Not because those values are inherently built in to the development of the human but rather because the human is choosing to express SELF and he can only do that by going against the previous values. 

I hope now you get the meta idea that allows you to slap Spiral Dynamics onto almost anything that develops in complexity, again...

SELF vs OTHER or RIGID vs EXPANDING 

This is the theme.

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by UnconsciousHuman

[UnconsciousHuman]

This model has the power to make a more actual understanding of spiral dynamics. 

For example when you see a stage RED gang leader be kind and loving towards his family. 

How could that be explained? His values are RED aren't they? This model shines light on that.

[UnconsciousHuman]

@The observer In your response you seem to be mixing in the values facet of Spiral Dynamics with this model. 

Edited April 25, 2020 by UnconsciousHuman

[UnconsciousHuman]

@The observer Rationality, logic, proof are manifestations of wanting to reconfigure and understand something. 

The intention to reconfigure and understand something I’ve categorized as FIVE/YELLOW.

Not ORANGE.

[UnconsciousHuman]

@lmfao 

This "categorizing people" can be useful, but sometimes it can serve as a distraction or any many cases a way to trivialize a certain viewpoint. He's an "X" thinker or "Z" category so therefore his opinion isn't as valid or accurate. Similarly the case with astrology where you slap labels on to people (Sun, Moon, Ascendant, Midheaven, Mercury..).

 

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by UnconsciousHuman

[The observer]

2 minutes ago, UnconsciousHuman said:

@The observer

In relevance to “Intention Of Communication” Orange’s intention is to assert itself, now how it does that is more advances than the stages below so for example when stage RED intention asserts it self, it does so in an aggressive manner, while stage ORANGE does it in a more calm “prove you wrong” manner.

I agree, it is fundamentally about "proof", but I don't think it's necessarily about "you wrong". You're adding a self into the context of stage THREE only, while the self is present in all the stages including TWO and FOUR. There is a fine distinction here. You say that a vegan proving the importance of veganism through logic is a stage Green (from SD) with THREE intentionality (from your model). I get that. And you're right. But I think your model is complex and could be simpler. Like, you say that we could have Yellow + THREE (learning +proving) or Green + THREE (e.g. proving the importance of connection or veganism) or Blue + THREE (proving religion/rules and norms) intentionalities. I think this nuance is creating confusion, and that it is based on a little confusion which I'm trying to point out.

Fundamentally, THREES approach things with logic and proof. It's just how THREES interact with the world around them. If you're saying logical things, THREES will applaud you, regardless of whether what you're saying is true or not. If they were to argue with you just for the sake of proving you wrong, then I would classify that as stage ONE. Think about it this way, if a stage Orange is trying to prove that logic is true, while using logic, then he is Orange + THREE. Notice that he isn't necessarily focused on proving others wrong or himself right. He's just focused on proving that logic is true. Notice the subtle difference between this and saying that he's only focused on proving others wrong or playing up his self-image. Fundamentally, the function of seeking to be right and playing up the self-image is present in all SD tier one stages, AND in all of the intentionality stages too. Nobody wants to be wrong. That's just the nature of the self.

Forget about SD, according to your system alone, how would you classify someone who's trying to prove that logic is true? Notice he values logic. Would you say that he's pure THREE? Or would you say that he's THREE (Orange) + THREE? Of course you would choose the former. Now, change the values that he's trying to prove. What will change? He will still be THREE according to your model. Because his approach is based on proof, logic, and evidence. But we can have a THREE approach to all SD tier one stages. And of course, we can have any approach from your model and apply it to all SD tier one stages.

We've basically just got back to what @lmfao said earlier. It's simply more about how someone is approaching a particular discussion. You are trying to track how different approaches manifest in real time (real time values), regardless of the original set of values. And I'm with you. All I'm saying is that stage THREE approach is not the only stage which values being right and self-image. Think of these values as independent factors because you can have a stage THREE who is open-minded and not focused on his self-image. He could be simply focused on proving whatever values he has through reason and logic.

[UnconsciousHuman]

@The observer No, you persist to fail to understand this concept. Im not going to explain this over and over. 

You either get it or you don’t. Others have gotten it.

Im open to a call on Skype where I explain it to you. 

[The observer]

12 minutes ago, The observer said:

Fundamentally, THREES approach things with logic and proof. It's just how THREES interact with the world around them. If you're saying logical things, THREES will applaud you, regardless of whether what you're saying is true or not. If they were to argue with you just for the sake of proving you wrong, then I would classify that as stage ONE.

As well, if they were to argue with you just for the sake of them being right, then I would classify that as stage TWO.

If they were to argue with you to prove that logic is true, then I would classify that as stage THREE.

If they were to focus more on human connection and your well-being regardless of logic, then I would classify that as stage FOUR.

I'll leave FIVE because I think it's very complex.

[UnconsciousHuman]

@The observer Just skype call.

[The observer]

12 minutes ago, UnconsciousHuman said:

@The observer No, you persist to fail to understand this concept. Im not going to explain this over and over. 

You either get it or you don’t. Others have gotten it.

Okay.

12 minutes ago, UnconsciousHuman said:

@The observer 

Im open to a call on Skype where I explain it to you. 

 

1 minute ago, UnconsciousHuman said:

@The observer Just skype call.

I'm sorry. I told you I can't.

[UnconsciousHuman]

@The observer Well is it because you don't have skype or for other reasons?

If it's for other reasons, I'm saddened to hear that, because I really really really want to help you see just how simple it is to get it, it's very nuanced but when you see it, you see it. 

[The observer]

@UnconsciousHuman

I can't Skype/voice chat for a variety of reasons I can't explain.

[UnconsciousHuman]

@The observer Understandable. Well, I would like to put an end to this dialogue. Let's agree to differ. 

[The observer]

Just now, UnconsciousHuman said:

@The observer Understandable. Well, I would like to put an end to this dialogue. Let's agree to differ. 

Okay.

[UnconsciousHuman]

@Keyhole The intention of communication is not the same as the way you go about communicating it. 

[UnconsciousHuman]

@Keyhole

Nice monkey picture you got there. I wonder what stage the monkey is...

[UnconsciousHuman]

@Keyhole

I think depending on your mood, the subject of discussion, or other factors you can alternate between the stages. So the "mode of operation" you use to interact with the people isn't fixed all the time. It is also possible to have combined Intentionality. Example: Learning and proving yourself right/superior. FIVE + THREE.