How exactly does "shame" work in society?

[Ethan1]

(Wasn't sure if this belongs more in the emotions category or society category.)

Figured I'd throw some thoughts out on this topic bc I don't see many people discussing the topic about toxic shame. I recently became more aware of some of my own insecurities with being shy and quiet growing up. This held me back for most of my life. I have been reflecting on my own beliefs and values. Just came across this and figured I'd share some thoughts that I keep in my common place book. 

Guilt vs shame.. 

Guilt is about you doing something that is wrong. 

Shame is about you as an individual being wrong, unworthy, or unacceptable. 

 

Shame is to feel less than and devalued.

Love is to feel worthy and valued. 

 

Shame isn't necessarily bad but toxic shame is what I'm curious about. 

 

Seems as though we born into a world where we are socialized and taught to follow endless social rules and cues without question. Our family systems pass on belief systems and values. Society uses shame as a tool to keep people from doing something socially unacceptable. 

The problem I see is when people are shamed at such a young age by authority figures where their brain isn't fully developed to know what is true. The shame is now installed as a core belief. The mental thought of "I am not enough" or "I am unworthy of love" is planted in the subconious mind. 

This belief at childhood can be repressed so deeply in the darkness of the mind that the person is unaware that it even exists. 

Yet I believe this is what contributes to most problems in society. People feel unaccepted and not enough. Feeling the need to jump through endless hoops to feel worthy and acceptance. Chasing social status and validation to fill the void of unworthiness. 

Maybe when I get "xyz" I will feel enough. Chasing the hungry ghost. 

 

I sat down and came up with a list of things people are shamed for that deeply impacts how people see their self. Self-image and esteem are deeply impacted from such beliefs. 

 

Examples of shame:

 

Shame for social groups.
    Shame for not being the same religion
    Shame for having certain friends.

Shame for not having the same sexuality. 
Shame for making a mistake.
Shame for failure. Not being an A+ student. 
Shame for a relationship status. "You're not married?" 
Shame for liking someone. "Kissing in a tree song? ". 
Shame for appearance and physical attributes.
    Shame for being too fat
    Shame for being too skinny
    Shame for being too strong
    Shame for being too weak
    Shame for being too tall
    Shame for being too short
    Shame for being too attractive
    Shame for being too ugly
    Shame for facial features
    Shame for skin color
    Shame for choice of clothes
    Shame for body hair length
    Shame for wearing a certain color

Shame for having those tattoos

Shame for a speech habit

Shame for your accent

Shame for going to jail or doing a crime

Shame for 

Shame for possessions
    Shame for the car that you drive
    Shame for having too much money
    Shame for having too little money 
    Shame for how you spend your money
    Shame for being homeless
Shame for interests & hobbies
    Shame for a certain music.
    Shame for a certain band.
    Shame for a career choice.
    Shame for liking something unordinary.
Slut shaming
Shame for nudity

Shame for the food you eat. Eating healthy or too unhealthy. 

Shame for being a bad parent.
Shame for being a bad mother.
Shame for being a bad father.
Shame for not being smart enough.
Shame for just being yourself.
Shame for certain ideas. 
Shame for expressing yourself.
    Shame for being angry. Don't be angry. 
    Shame for being sad. Don't be sad. Stop crying. Men can not cry. 
    Shame for laughing too much.
    Shame for too much joy. 
    Shame for talking too loud. 
    Shame for talking too quiet. 
    Shame for being shy. 
    Shame for being emotional.
 

I believe people try to escape reality to avoid the pain that the social conditioning and shame has created. 

I believe most addictions come from shame. 

 

Shame deep down comes to not meeting another person's standard of living. Not being what a person perceives is "right and good" . The truth is that right and good are purely relative. Right and good varries from person to person. Society tries to condition us to belief that we should be a certain type of person to be "worthy of love". That is a lie. We were born with love.

From all the shame that society gives out. I question why self-love is less discussed. We aren't born perfect and never will be perfect. 

You should taught to feel self-love. 

You should feel self-acceptance. 

We all hold value and potential.

You should be grateful for being you and be proud. 

Accepting yourself. 
Accept your feelings. 
Accept your thoughts. 
Accept your needs. 
Accept your values. 
Deeply accept yourself for being human. 

Love those around you. Love your enemies. Most importantly love yourself. 

--- 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Ethan1

[VerballyHazardous]

@Ethan1

Having some problem with loving my "enemies". I like shaming on people who shame on me . It's difficult to love someone who denies my own way of being.

[Preety_India]

8 minutes ago, VerballyHazardous said:

. It's difficult to love someone who denies my own way of being.

 

I can relate 

 

 

 

[Ethan1]

Just because someone isn't interested in your music does that mean it's bad or they are bad? 

Just because someone doesn't like your style does that make the style is bad or the person with a different perspective is an enemy? 

No. Perspectives are different. 

Seek first to understand, then to be understood. 

People allow social conditioning and fear of rejection to put a lock on the mind. 

Shame makes a person want to hide. 

Shame thrives in isolation. More keeping it secrete. A grip and life of its own. A malignancy on the soul. A soul wound. 
 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Ethan1

[Chumbimba]

https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Shame-that-Binds-You-ebook/dp/B016P6GC9A/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2ICC8ORE4ZFIG&dchild=1&keywords=healing+the+shame+that+binds+you+-+john+bradshaw&qid=1587654988&sprefix=healing+the+shame+tha%2Caps%2C203&sr=8-1 

 

Read this book 

 

[Preety_India]

 This is a very tricky topic. 

You shouldn't shame others. Completely fine. Agree. 

But you're also not supposed to react to those who shame you? That's like being a Saint. Turning the other cheek 

But most people won't hold up to that. You get treated how you treat others. If others treat you badly, they're not necessarily enemies but you are expected to react.. This is human nature and not divine, but human. 

It's great to love everyone. But reality doesn't work on this principle. Try loving someone who is shaming you.

The real question is how fair is it to shame people for not being loving  to those who hate them. 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Preety_India

[Parththakkar12]

 

[Roy]

Shame is a sneaky defense mechanism of the ego in which it tries to indirectly or directly influence and nudge people into behaving or thinking a certain way.

If it can get everybody to conform to be like it, then it can absolve all responsibility to change or improve itself without remorse. It feels safe, comfortable, and justified in the warmth of numbers.

Notice how every cult, religion, political group, and any other kind of collective ego (or individual) uses shame as a tool for propagating itself and achieving it's goals. The intensity and frequency it uses shame should be one of the biggest indicators for how toxic and corrupt it is.

It's another example of how negativity is an ineffective and unsustainable tool and as you said @Ethan1, love is a more viable alternative.

 

[Ethan1]

Yeah this stuff does get pretty confusing. Especially in group dynamics where ostracism is involved. I don't see too many people discussing the effects of ostracism or the social effects it has.

 

I could be wrong on some of this stuff. I'm still trying to put the puzzle together. 

 

I'm wondering how far can a shame based society go before people become completely stifled to express their self without the emotional triggers of shame getting in the way. I see shame is repressed an emotional trigger that causes a person to want to hide. People create emotional masks to prevent facing such pain. This creates emotional baggage that harbors in the mind. 

 

I guess, you can choose how you want to respond to the negative stimulus. How you react is up to your emotional resilience and perception. I guess a person who has a fragile sense of self will be more offended by something and take it personally. A more robust emotional system could probably withstand a certain frame attack. 

I think loving someone who is shaming you is a real test. If the person is coming from shame then they are hurt. They are coming from a lower level of consciousness. I guess hurt people, hurt people. It's necessary to have boundaries to self protect and stand up for yourself. I still think from a fighters frame the person can still act in a counteractive defensive way even when someone's ego is doing the attacking. 

 

I'm trying to understand a childhood development and the impact a neglect has to create shame.

Such as being disowned by your parents or being adopted. Has drastic effects on attachment issues. Feeling not enough. 

Such as, when being young  in 1st grade and loving to sing. Then the teacher made fun of the person in front of the class and said the persons voice was horrible. The shame would cripple the persons voice. Feeling not enough.

Is that not the power that words have? 

Or if my parents conditioned me that laughing is inappropriate. Or I grew up in an authriterian style household in India. If the parents didn't allow me to be me. Using negative reinforcement to assert authority to gain cultural compliance and socially discipline. 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Ethan1

[w4read]

I imagine that the most concious people just recognise when people shame them without reacting to it more emotionally than any other trivial event, and respond to it intuitively based on the context. The response could probably be very different from time to time. Sometimes you maybe would turn the other cheek and make a joke or something, but other times you would maybe come up with some comeback to shake the abuser of their core or set a boundary.

[Preety_India]

 

This video teaches a lot about why shaming people is so bad. I see a lot of shaming happening on the forum too. Like being shamed for not being high conscious or putting out high conscious content. One person acting superior to another. Covert ways of being negative to another person. It's just a way of convincing the ego that you're better than others and one way of doing this is to point out how bad or inferior others are. Constantly criticising instead of being positive. If the other person is not comfortable with your style, don't impose on them, don't make it sound like they are not taking positive criticism, they don't need your positive criticism because it's not helping them, on the other hand when a person who you really get along with tries to correct you and criticize you, it works really well because deep down you know they mean well and they understand you, so you have that trust in knowing that they are not trying to dissuade you in any way, but when you have a stranger telling you that you are not right, it's bound to create feelings of denial and shame and no amount of convincing will help you think that it's positive criticism, in such a case, it's best for that person to back off because they aren't serving any purpose but only bringing negativity. 

There's a distinct difference between a person trying to criticize you with the intent to help you versus a person whose only motivation seems to provoke you. 

Here is an example of how a conversation happens between two people and clues that help you understand the difference between an empathizer who is trying to criticize and someone who is only doing more damage than good. 

Person A 

You're an attention seeker. 

Person B 

No. I'm not an attention seeker. 

Person A 

You don't sing well. You do all this only for attention. (notice how person A is trying to act he knows everything about person B. Shamers always act like they know more or they know better) 

Person B

But I'm not doing it for attention. I like singing.. I'm trying to be a good singer. 

Person A 

There are others who can do better than you. (Shamers use comparisons to justify their stance) 

Person B 

This is my genuine attempt to do something out of my life. What's your problem? If you don't like, that's your opinion. 

Person A

You should not be selected into the band for singing. You don't deserve it. 

Person B

Who are you to decide that. Why are you judging me? 

Person A

Because I think you aren't good enough. 

Person B

I have suffered so much in my life. I had so many problems. I have come so far. I have worked so hard. I remember last time I didn't sing well because I was really sick. 

Person A

I don't care about that. 

Person B

Wow. Then you shouldn't care about anything. 

Second conversation 

Person A

I think you sing pretty good. But there are certain things that you can improve on.

Person B

Thanks for the compliment. I never really thought I could sing good. 

Person A

Oh that was really good. Don't get me wrong. 

Person B

Really? I'm pleasantly surprised. 

Person A

That was great. But I still think that we can do better on it. It's really not up to the mark where we can finalize and get it to work. 

Person B

What do you suggest? 

Person A 

You can work with our voice coach and he will really help you out. You can actually do better than this, trust me. 

Person B

I have suffered so much in my life. I had so many problems. I have come so far. I have worked so hard. I remember last time I didn't sing well because I was really sick. 

 

Person A 

Oh, sorry to hear that. I completely empathize with you. I understand your struggles. And it's amazing how you are doing despite all the odds. You really have great potential. It's only some things that need to be fixed. 

Person B

I'm sorry I couldn't give my best 

Person A

You'll do really well if you work with the voice coach. 

Person B

Sure. 

 

Notice the tone of person A in both conversations. 

The first conversation, person A comes across as a rude, bullying, shaming and insensitive bully who doesn't care about person B and the only objective seems to be to throw person B out of the band 

The second conversation, person A is not happy with the singing but approaches politely and offers solutions along with positive criticism and also empathizes with the personal situations and experiences of person B. 

You'll notice a few key differences with people who shame. 

~ they already hold a bias or a negative assumption about you. Person A started the conversation by saying that person B is an attention seeker 

~ they are persistent and don't stop despite repeated attempts to make them understand that they are being offensive 

~ when they are told a story, they don't want to listen and very harshly convey a sentiment of insensitivity 

Words like "I don't know" "I don't care" or complete silence /ignoring the whole information as though they just didn't hear it 

~ they don't offer solutions after criticising. Instead of solutions they offer elimination, Ostracization, omission, dismissal, decision, judgement and justification for elimination. They don't show that the person has a problem, rather they try to show that the person itself is the problem. 

There are very minor yet very impactful differences between positive criticism and shaming. 

Positive criticism is an effort to help the person. Whereas shaming is a way to get the person eliminated or hated on by others. Because the person who shames is holding an inherent bias. 

This is a good video that shows how shaming affects a person's will to grow and be positive in life. 

 

 

[Commodent]

Fine post. ?