Believing That You Know

[Mal]

34 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Huz ....moral behavior.

Moral behaviour is trying to fix up the dream. Awake and you won't need morals, you will see morals for what they are, mere artifacts of religion and programming. 

This is about authenticity rather than tip toeing around new age wannabes. Ken Wilber created the Integral scene for exactly this purpose, so we can hang out with like minded people and avoid getting accosted by green idiots 

(And yes I mean green in both spiral dynamics terms and just plain run of the mill naive "green")

 

Edited July 3, 2016 by Mal

[Huz]

26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Huz Sure, because Truth technically has nothing to do with morality or proper conduct.

One could know the Truth and nuke the entire planet, just like one could know that 1+1=2 and then murder their family. Knowing 1+1=2 isn't necessarily connected to any particular mode of behavior. Just because I know 1+1=2 doesn't necessarily mean I'll be nice to you.

Many spiritual aspirants make the mistake of conflating Truth with moral behavior. The reality is that immoral behavior is equally as true as moral behavior.

Yep I certainly was a bit skeptical of those scandals to be honest initially. But that there was no free will on the matter, it was just consiousness at play. 

Edited July 3, 2016 by Huz

[charlie2dogs]

20 hours ago, MarkusR said:

There seems to be problem in this forum, especially when it comes to the more experienced forum users, the ones who claim enlightenment, the ones who preach and sometimes even ridicule. Many posts I read in this section of the forum are filled with responses from so called "self-aware", "enlightened" folk who give off this negative intent when responding, especially to newbies in the spiritual realm. Its so funny to see this in action from an outside perspective, because it is so gosh darn blatantly obvious that those who claim to be so SPIRITUALLY AWARE, also seem to boast the biggest most pompous egos. If you could just see yourself with everyone else you'd see we are all boasting ego's, that's going to go on up until its not.

Anyway I hope all the newcomers and newfound spiritual seekers don't get too overwhelmed by some of those responses. Don't worry they don't know shit, just like the rest of us.

right, wrong, good, bad, moral, immoral can mean anything to most anyone at any time depending on their belief system and state of mind at the time,   for every action there is a reaction,  for me it is best to remain in a place of liberation than suffering the consequences of functioning unconsciously.

[psychoslice]

I personally see all enlightened, yes I had an experience of feeling One in all there IS, but that was only an experience, the experience itself wasn't that which IS, and we as the mind body can never know of that which is beyond the mind. So there is no need to feel better than another, or believe you have something that others haven't, to do so is to fool yourself, and that is what the ego tries to do. If you have had an experience that you feel was beyond the mind, then share it, don't shove it in other peoples face, for then your experience is worthless.

[MarkusR]

@Leo Gura I see... Very interesting.

Everyone can experience and know the truth, whether "good" or "bad". But the people I know to have had those experiences seem to act in such a manner that I could never imagine them acting or reacting so negatively. They don't seem to feel the need to share their experience the way these people in the forum do, rather violently.

The people I know to have experienced enlightenment and that are truly wise are cool and confident in their approach to answering even ignorant questions, with a smile on their face. Why should you be negative and aggressive toward the fantasies of less aware people? It seems wrong, to me it seems unenlightened, at that point I believe there is more work to be done.

[Ayla]

@MarkusR , you are right, there are many people that had EXPERIENCED enlightenment. That seems to be a happening. Period. 

Now subsequently to that experience, there is what I call "a process of recovery" which can be/is life-long. Wounds, patterns, attachments, judgments, etc, don't magically disappear (even though, some of them seem to be instantly dropped). They need to be "seen" and "worked through". This process needs constant focus, dedication, permanent relying on what has been experienced (no-self)... etc. 

To "SEE" a pattern for example, requires  constant awareness and vigilance. It requires a deep understanding that nothing is "out there", or maybe better said, whatever seems to be "out there", stems from "in here". This understanding MUST be followed by active "inner work"... or it will be lost, and those patterns will continue to be played out.

Nobody is being mean. That pattern isn't yet SEEN. Neither in you nor in the "other people" you might be referring to. (this is the only reason it is still in manifestation). The ones that would work through it, turn it "INwards" will be the ones that will free themselves from it sooner than the others, (who might, at that point, be working through some other issue that has more "urgency" for them.) 

I'm trying to post some practical advice, from my own experience in my journals here on the forum if you feel inspired to take a look..

Hope this helps a bit..

 

[charlie2dogs]

59 minutes ago, MarkusR said:

@Leo Gura I see... Very interesting.

Everyone can experience and know the truth, whether "good" or "bad". But the people I know to have had those experiences seem to act in such a manner that I could never imagine them acting or reacting so negatively. They don't seem to feel the need to share their experience the way these people in the forum do, rather violently.

The people I know to have experienced enlightenment and that are truly wise are cool and confident in their approach to answering even ignorant questions, with a smile on their face. Why should you be negative and aggressive toward the fantasies of less aware people? It seems wrong, to me it seems unenlightened, at that point I believe there is more work to be done.

enlightened beings wont be negative or aggressive toward the fantasies of less aware people,  sometimes they will try to help you avoid the consequences they suffered, if you can hear, but they know that most often they arent heard and they remember when they couldnt hear either.  what is there to be negative or aggressive about if you have overcome the identity body, with its ego and you are experiencing real joy and peace in your life.  those who would do that are not enlightened.

[psychoslice]

Actually everyone knows, its just that most are pretending they don't know, and of course the pretender is the ego that doesn't want to know, after all to know is the end of the ego........so stop pretending lol.

[Mal]

11 hours ago, MarkusR said:

The people I know to have experienced enlightenment and that are truly wise are cool and confident in their approach to answering even ignorant questions, with a smile on their face. Why should you be negative and aggressive toward the fantasies of less aware people? It seems wrong, to me it seems unenlightened, at that point I believe there is more work to be done.

A few points:

1) I'm not enlightened,  never claimed I was.

2) I'm not you, or your enlightened friends.  I'm me.  My own history and programming, not some plastic stereotype your mind made up as a cookie cutter process Buddha.

3) How many people do you know, in real life, who are "enlightened"?  I know nobody.  There is not one person on here on this forum who is enlightened either.  However, there are people awakening and doing work.

4) Can you put me in touch with these "cool enlightened people" please, because I'd like to hang out in your group, you must have learned a lot about their messy awakening and shadow work phase, the nightmare they went through to get there, seeing as you know them personally and their journey?

Edited July 5, 2016 by Mal

[MarkusR]

@Mal I do actually, I do know them personally and the challenges some of them faced. One of the individuals only now just quit opiates. I do not know what your definition of enlightened is as to me it is an "understanding" of the truth, and an ability to experience the truth at a will since no one can be permanently enlightened.

So you are not awaken, well then, that makes a lot more sense now.

[Mal]

@MarkusR

Its ok.  I would not expect anything less than an assumption from you.  Awakening is different from enlightenment.  If you want to know the difference, then start paying attention to the awakened people here.  And stop assuming.

[Mal]

@MarkusR There is no understanding.  Understanding is a function of the identity.  There is nothing to understand.  However, there is a dropping off of right vs wrong, and if you saw me have a conversation you could be sure I was in a state where my conscience was not active.  I have a pretty aggressive conscience, just like you.  To be relieved of that for a weekend was pretty amazing.  Its clear you have never experienced an awakening yourself, just like 99% of the people here. 

Edited July 5, 2016 by Mal

[charlie2dogs]

32 minutes ago, MarkusR said:

@Mal I do actually, I do know them personally and the challenges some of them faced. One of the individuals only now just quit opiates. I do not know what your definition of enlightened is as to me it is an "understanding" of the truth, and an ability to experience the truth at a will since no one can be permanently enlightened.

So you are not awaken, well then, that makes a lot more sense now.

 

9 hours ago, psychoslice said:

Actually everyone knows, its just that most are pretending they don't know, and of course the pretender is the ego that doesn't want to know, after all to know is the end of the ego........so stop pretending lol.

what is there to know?

[charlie2dogs]

34 minutes ago, MarkusR said:

@Mal I do actually, I do know them personally and the challenges some of them faced. One of the individuals only now just quit opiates. I do not know what your definition of enlightened is as to me it is an "understanding" of the truth, and an ability to experience the truth at a will since no one can be permanently enlightened.

So you are not awaken, well then, that makes a lot more sense now.

hi markus, the human identity will never know the truth of anything, the human identity is the illusion, the illusion cannot know truth.  so in order to know the truth one must become the truth, and to become the truth one has to become something other than a human being identity body.  the only thing left is consciousness, and to transition from the human being to a being of consciousness, is like being an invisible being with a set of eyeballs floating in space fully aware, fully conscious. existing only in the moment, as an observer of what takes place in that moment, without attachment, without the giving of attention.  to experience the awakened consciousness as a being of consciousness and not the human identity is what enlightenment or self realization is,  it is the realization and the experience of not functioning as the human identity. One teacher stated, I and the father are one,  few have understood that, the term father that was used was representative of consciousness,  and to be one with it is to be self realized. some have this idea that everyone is enlightened, that is nothing more than a newage theory.  until the consciousness that became trapped in the illusion and forgot its true estate,  has fully awakened and taken up its true state of being,  it is only the illusion, what is rooted within consciousness is what is keeping one in the illusion.  Many are primarily gathering information, speculating and making assumptions that end up becoming a belief,  there is no room for a belief system with a self realized being.  to be enlightened or self realized one must achieve a state of liberation, in that the consciousness is cleansed, and the being leaves the physical body as a liberated being, not as consciousness that is trapped in the illusion, still carrying all that has been rooted in it, and the human identity cannot cleanse the consciousness, it can only be done by functioning as a being of consciousness, as it then dissolves and flows away from the liberated being. an enlightened being must maintain at least one desire in order to remain grounded in this dimension.  the experience of being a being of consciousness rather than a human being cannot be fully grasp until it happens and then the dream and illusion is over, in some teachings this is known as the transition from the third eye chakra to the crown chakra, there is no road map for this, no one can take you there, it requires complete surrender and that includes your belief system, programing, and warped perception of life and even your fictitious identity.

[MarkusR]

@charlie2dogs Yea, thats the complicated part about being "enlightened". If you become awakened, all that is is the experience, once you have had it all you can take into the dirty world or world of the mind is that memory. I think the final transition would have to be death, otherwise you are destined to stay in this persona.

Do you think some people have really reached permanent enlightenment? It seems kind of out of this world, I have a feeling you would have to be very close to death if you get into that stage.

[MarkusR]

@Mal What experience would that awakening be? I have had many experiences but I would only attach the word awakening to enlightenment, at its true form. Also I don't believe I have a very aggressive conscious when it comes to interacting with most people, of course it depends, but generally I wouldn't label my conscious aggressive.

But Mal, I do understand where you come from in some of your posts. We do have some similar ideas, like our disagreement with the pursuit of personal development, at least past a certain stage. You know enough to know this negativity and aggression is not good, and will be an obstacle you have to face on your journey.

[Mal]

1 hour ago, charlie2dogs said:

some have this idea that everyone is enlightened, that is nothing more than a newage theory.  

 

2 minutes ago, MarkusR said:

@Mal What experience would that awakening be? I have had many experiences but I would only attach the word awakening to enlightenment, at its true form. Also I don't believe I have a very aggressive conscious when it comes to interacting with most people, of course it depends, but generally I wouldn't label my conscious aggressive.

But Mal, I do understand where you come from in some of your posts. We do have some similar ideas, like our disagreement with the pursuit of personal development, at least past a certain stage. You know enough to know this negativity and aggression is not good, and will be an obstacle you have to face on your journey.

Markus,

The conversation you took offence to was one of the most spacious moments of my life. I was talking to Quizzer about what I saw, I was attempting to show him what I saw. Did you not notice that there was a victim there taking offence to my words? Do you not see the dynamic that could have occurred when victim and aggressor are involved? Victim and aggressor are human concept, they are not real. So when I had that conversation I was no thinking as a human being who had to observe and control my aggression. 

Is the wind and rain not aggressive to your human sensitivities? What happens when you awaken AS the rain fall? It's no longer an aggression but an expression of suchness. What is. This. Reality. 

I'm not trying to argue here, I'm just attempting to show you that you know nothing of my intent during that conversation with Quizzer. 

[MarkusR]

@Mal ,

He took offense, clearly, and you back lashed at his ignorance.

You didn't even respond, lets not talk about that I want to leave that agenda, can you actually respond to my question because I am generally curious.

[Mal]

14 minutes ago, MarkusR said:

@Mal ,

He took offense, clearly, and you back lashed at his ignorance.

You didn't even respond, lets not talk about that I want to leave that agenda, can you actually respond to my question because I am generally curious.

Ok Markus,

Let's approach this another way. 

What is it you are looking for?

An apology?

Ok, I apologise for what you think I did to somebody called Quizzer more than 8 days ago.

Will this make things clearer for you?

[MarkusR]

@Mal Do you know how to interpret text? Is this your second language? Just read my message I asked a question

 

Ill rephrase here. What is the difference between awakening and enlightenment to you? Can you define it so I have a better understanding of your situation.

Edited July 5, 2016 by MarkusR