Believing That You Know

[Mal]

14 minutes ago, charlie2dogs said:

have you ever seen an enlightened being tortured, i have never heard of such a thing.  once a king went to a masters home and when the master didnt respond the way the king wanted, the king said, do you not know that i have the power to take your life, the master replied do you not know that i have the power to let you.

This reminds me of what Christ allegedly said to Pontious Pilate before his alleged crucifixion. 

"Dont you realise I have the power to have you crucified?"

Christ replied

"You would not have this power had it not been given to you from above"

But, Christ suffered on the cross, didn't he? Reported to have anyway. 

So what to make of this?

[Huz]

17 minutes ago, charlie2dogs said:

have you ever seen an enlightened being tortured, i have never heard of such a thing.  once a king went to a masters home and when the master didnt respond the way the king wanted, the king said, do you not know that i have the power to take your life, the master replied do you not know that i have the power to let you.

Nope I haven't. I have heard Jesus being crucified but that is just a story. I was just asking that if it did happen would an enlightened being suffer while being tortured?

[Huz]

1 minute ago, Mal said:

This reminds me of what Christ allegedly said to Pontious Pilate before his alleged crucifixion. 

"Dont you realise I have the power to have you crucified?"

Christ replied

"You would not have this power had it not been given to you from above"

But, Christ suffered on the cross, didn't he? Reported to have anyway. 

So what to make of this?

I believe to people observing his body on the outside it looked like he was suffering. But there was no him to suffer. Him as consiousness wasn't touched.

[MarkusR]

@Huz No suffering ever touches our conscious true-selves right? Does that mean that no suffering was felt by Jesus him-self, it must have pierced through his will and caused him great pain since he was still bound to that body.

I also wonder the same about those Tibetan monks that burned themselves while meditating. 

Have you ever tried going into really cold water while meditating, you can enter calmly because it feels like the cold is just happening and it is neither here nor there in the spectrum of pain. But I am guessing that when it gets to that level of pain no one can escape your bodies automatic reaction.

[Huz]

5 minutes ago, MarkusR said:

@Huz No suffering ever touches our conscious true-selves right? Does that mean that no suffering was felt by Jesus him-self, it must have pierced through his will and caused him great pain since he was still bound to that body.

I also wonder the same about those Tibetan monks that burned themselves while meditating. 

Have you ever tried going into really cold water while meditating, you can enter calmly because it feels like the cold is just happening and it is neither here nor there in the spectrum of pain. But I am guessing that when it gets to that level of pain no one can escape your bodies automatic reaction.

Yeah, I get this from my experiences from strong determination sitting. Thats why I am asking. There are points where there is a lot of pain experienced. But when you are able to be mindful over it and your thoughts ,the pain doesn't cause you to suffer. My awareness if very low and I can imagine when training your whole life and are self-liberated you can get to stages where you can bare pain unimaginable to us at the moment and it wont cause suffering.

[key]

47 minutes ago, Mal said:

I don't see anybody else here apart from these 3 who understands first hand what this work is about. Do you?

Entertain my naivety if you will. @Mal

I genuienly have no first hand experience, I also have very little understanding of what this work is about, yet my desire to self-actualise remain.

Explain to me what this work is about.

If you question my authenticity so be it. But a direct response to my request would be appreciated. 

[Mal]

4 minutes ago, Huz said:

Yeah, I get this from my experiences from strong determination sitting. Thats why I am asking. There are points where there is a lot of pain experienced. But when you are able to be mindful over it and your thoughts ,the pain doesn't cause you to suffer. My awareness if very low and I can imagine when training your whole life and are self-liberated you can get to stages where you can bare pain unimaginable to us at the moment and it wont cause suffering.

What has this got to do with anything?

I am guilty too of part-taking in this conversation.  But this questioning had no relevance 

[Huz]

1 hour ago, Huz said:

Charlie, here is a thought experiment. Imagine if I had to turn you over to torture chamber in the middle east for 6 months. Would they be able to make you suffer at all, with any method applied to you (eg blow torch, pliers etc)? 

Would that cause you fear or does it feel the same as say going on a picnic in nature?

Can consiousness become so liberated that even though the physical body is being destroyed, from a subjective perspective nothing is touched? 

It had something to do with my reasoning behind this thought experiment

[Mal]

Sorry Kenya, you are on my blocked list. I only saw your comment because I was signed out. 

 

[Ayla]

I think this one is the perfect example of wanting to kill the dragons in the dream instead of waking up from the dream.. 

 

 

[Khin]

@MarkusR Oops!! We can share our opinions and our experiences, right? I'll try not to act like I know shit...

[charlie2dogs]

1 hour ago, Huz said:

Nope I haven't. I have heard Jesus being crucified but that is just a story. I was just asking that if it did happen would an enlightened being suffer while being tortured?

if there was a real jesus, it was made into religious fanaticism for the most part, and is pretty much worthless for liberating anyone, however those awakened can see the deeper meaning of some of the text.

[charlie2dogs]

1 hour ago, Mal said:

This reminds me of what Christ allegedly said to Pontious Pilate before his alleged crucifixion. 

"Dont you realise I have the power to have you crucified?"

Christ replied

"You would not have this power had it not been given to you from above"

But, Christ suffered on the cross, didn't he? Reported to have anyway. 

So what to make of this?

mal there is a lot to these stories that dont add up, the bible was pretty much written by the catholic church to control humans, first they have to convince you that you are lost and then that you need to be saved and all you have to do is believe.  it didnt work for me.

[Khin]

17 hours ago, MarkusR said:

@Leo Gura I see... Very interesting.

Everyone can experience and know the truth, whether "good" or "bad". But the people I know to have had those experiences seem to act in such a manner that I could never imagine them acting or reacting so negatively. They don't seem to feel the need to share their experience the way these people in the forum do, rather violently.

The people I know to have experienced enlightenment and that are truly wise are cool and confident in their approach to answering even ignorant questions, with a smile on their face. Why should you be negative and aggressive toward the fantasies of less aware people? It seems wrong, to me it seems unenlightened, at that point I believe there is more work to be done.

Hey I love what you said.... It just because the way I am, I can never stand hurting anyone or anything. So even if there's no such thing as good or bad, there is cause and effect. In the process of becoming enlightened, people also learned how they should act and think in certain ways (if you are doing right). I know this for very sure because I'm also on enlightenment journey for years and I know how much I've changed. But I also know that everyone is different so everyone learn and experience differently. However, there is only ONE Truth. Therefore, fully enlightened people, half way enlightened people, and people who are still on journey happened to know the same thing. That is why we can assume enlightened people must act such and such by looking at other enlightened people. If you stand up and move to the right side, you will move towards the right side. If you move left side, you will move towards left side. Our actions will take us somewhere. Actions define who we are because actions come from emotions and thoughts. Emotions of living things are real. Or at least it is very real for people with lack-consciousness and unaware. And that is the Truth. As a person who love the truth, we shouldn't ignore any of the Truth. Before fully enlightened, everything we see and feel are REAL. Even after enlightened, feelings and emotions are still real for others.

Anyways, if enlightened people are hurting others and acting shit (I know they would never),.. LOL I'll just put all of them in trash can.. no matter they are Buddha, Jesus or God (whatever).

[Mal]

44 minutes ago, Khin said:

Anyways, if enlightened people are hurting others and acting shit (I know they would never),.. LOL I'll just put all of them in trash can.. no matter they are Buddha, Jesus or God (whatever).

Thanks for posting this as it's a great example of dualistic schizopherinc delusion and double bind.

Yes, put them all in the trash can until there is nobody left except except your ego. 

This is just Buddhist nonsense at its best. 

PS. Did it "hurt" them as you tossed them in the trash can?

[Khin]

@Mal Umm.. No..  Well... It's just me. If not wanting anyone hurt or caring for others means ego... then let myself be a BIG EGO. It is OK. If people are claiming themselves enlightened but doing shit without caring about others, then they just won't get respect from people like me. Oh.. right .. they don't care anyways because they are so "enlightened" (LOL).

Mann.. Please, I have no other hurtful feelings. I just don't want people to be thinking like they do not have to care any shit anymore because everything is illusions and such and such. Some people seem to be very popular, even monks seem to be enlightened and talk like gurus. But you guys should carefully research what they know and what you want. Umm.. maybe I'm just worry too much.  

 

[Mal]

7 minutes ago, Khin said:

@Mal Umm.. No..  Well... It's just me. If not wanting anyone hurt or caring for others means ego... then let myself be a BIG EGO. It is OK. If people are claiming themselves enlightened but doing shit without caring about others, then they just won't get respect from people like me. Oh.. right .. they don't care anyways because they are so "enlightened" (LOL).

Mann.. Please, I have no other hurtful feelings. I just don't want people to be thinking like they do not have to care any shit anymore because everything is illusions and such and such. Some people seem to be very popular, even monks seem to be enlightened and talk like gurus. But you guys should carefully research what they know and what you want. Umm.. maybe I'm just worry too much.  

 

It's not that you are being a big ego. It's that you are misleading us. You are talking about dualistic moralising that's nothing to do with awakening, enlightenment. Your outlook is a byproduct of looking for a religion that suits your moral needs. 

That's it. Your insight has no place here. You be better off at the local salvation army selling lollypops for the charity, or Hare Krishna on Oxford Street in London banging your tambourine.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Mal

[Khin]

@Mal Holy... That was harsh....  I'm sad.

You know that everything we do will lead us to somewhere. We can't just ignore something as unimportant. Especially in enlightenment work where it needs 100% focus and observation. How am I misleading?

[Mal]

16 minutes ago, Khin said:

@Mal Holy... That was harsh....  I'm sad.

You know that everything we do will lead us to somewhere. We can't just ignore something as unimportant. Especially in enlightenment work where it needs 100% focus and observation. How am I misleading?

I imagine you are speaking about some religious path? This is all dream related stuff. 

I don't need a path to tell me how to behave, the opposite actually.  I'm more skillfull when I threw away this nonsense.

I'm not creating consequences in my life by deciding what is "harsh" and what is "nice". 

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by Mal

[Corte]

*Mal drops non existent mic and walks off into nothingness*