Believing That You Know

[MarkusR]

There seems to be problem in this forum, especially when it comes to the more experienced forum users, the ones who claim enlightenment, the ones who preach and sometimes even ridicule. Many posts I read in this section of the forum are filled with responses from so called "self-aware", "enlightened" folk who give off this negative intent when responding, especially to newbies in the spiritual realm. Its so funny to see this in action from an outside perspective, because it is so gosh darn blatantly obvious that those who claim to be so SPIRITUALLY AWARE, also seem to boast the biggest most pompous egos. If you could just see yourself with everyone else you'd see we are all boasting ego's, that's going to go on up until its not.

Anyway I hope all the newcomers and newfound spiritual seekers don't get too overwhelmed by some of those responses. Don't worry they don't know shit, just like the rest of us.

[Mal]

@MarkusR

It looks like you have some idealistic and distorted views about some things. 

Angry, idealistic too. 

Let me ask you a question, if you really "don't know shit" then why did you create this topic?

"Not knowing" means to stop imagining that what were seeing is what is "out there".  This practice of taking back projections has a purpose, it affords us the opportunity to regulate emotions and heal the mind, so that one day we really CAN know "shit"!

That's the main objective of "not knowing shit".

I invite you to try this excersise for yourself and see in which ways you are attempting to control your own projected image with the conscious part of your identity. 

Mal

[vizual]

@MarkusR  Apparently you seem to think that you DO know shit, that you are somehow more wise than the people who you project to have "pompous ego's". If your post was of any value you would have gone more in depth to what newfound spiritual seekers should be cautious of in reading these forums. In stead, you just lift yourself up above everyone and start calling names.

You claim that you are looking from an "outside perspective", yet somehow this perspective is able to judge people. Care to elaborate on that?

[Ayla]

@MarkusR , this is one way to benefit from everything and anything:

 

[MarkusR]

@Mal It's good that you responded, it was actually a post that you replied to that prompted me to create this post. 

1 hour ago, Mal said:

 

@MarkusR

It looks like you have some idealistic and distorted views about some things. 

Angry, idealistic too. 

 

What views exactly? My view in this case is that people who have enough time to ridicule and make posts with negative intent are just as enlightened as some kids here that has just began meditating. I also believe that we all know nothing, until we dont, until we become enlightened, and even then it is no longer "knowing", so there should be nothing to show.

I don't see anything angry about that at all.

1 hour ago, Mal said:

Let me ask you a question, if you really "don't know shit" then why did you create this topic?

I do not know anything about the nature of reality or consciousness. I do not like how some more enlightened folk are looking down on people and causing harm through words. To me someone that would be enlightened would not have negative intent or be so pompous about their enlightenment.

That is why I created this topic.

1 hour ago, Mal said:

"Not knowing" means to stop imagining that what were seeing is what is "out there".  This practice of taking back projections has a purpose, it affords us the opportunity to regulate emotions and heal the mind, so that one day we really CAN know "shit"!

True, I practice this yes.

 

[MarkusR]

@vizual 

59 minutes ago, vizual said:

 

@MarkusR  Apparently you seem to think that you DO know shit, that you are somehow more wise than the people who you project to have "pompous ego's".

 

I can't claim that much, but I do think that through my perspective I can see the attachment of ego in people that claim to let go of it.

1 hour ago, vizual said:

If your post was of any value you would have gone more in depth to what newfound spiritual seekers should be cautious of in reading these forums. In stead, you just lift yourself up above everyone and start calling names.

This may be true. I made this post in a haste and it should have been mainly aimed at helping newcomers and people that really want to become enlightened. Rather it was angrily putting down those people I found to be giving off that negative intent. Unwise in my part, but I also wanted those people to hear something blatantly "true" and maybe even a little aggressive so that they could think back at themselves.

1 hour ago, vizual said:

You claim that you are looking from an "outside perspective", yet somehow this perspective is able to judge people. Care to elaborate on that?

Well of course, we always judge people, whether good or bad. I do not see how me being from an outside perspective looking at forum posts and replies that I myself are not attached to could relinquish my ability to judge. This is my perspective of things and I wanted to share it.

 

Thanks for this response though, got me to rethink my post and my intents here. Harsh but crucial.

[key]

2 hours ago, MarkusR said:

To me someone that would be enlightened would not have negative intent or be so pompous about their enlightenment.

Your mistake is assuming how 'enlightened' folk should act.

 

8 hours ago, MarkusR said:

it is so gosh darn blatantly obvious that those who claim to be so SPIRITUALLY AWARE, also seem to boast the biggest most pompous egos.

I recommend redefining your views on what the ego is, how it shapes our experience, and your relationship to it, you seem to be very mislead.

Your own projections onto others are your downfall.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Kenya

[MarkusR]

@Kenya Please elaborate, how am I mislead, why is it a mistake to make distinctions in the way people act.

[MarkusR]

@Ayla Wow, Leo has a video thats relevant for everything.

[Mal]

@MarkusR @MarkusR

You will get over it.  It's actually a function of your immaturity and ego that you even write such posts.

(I hope this doesn't upset your ego too much Markus)

Edited July 3, 2016 by Mal

[Ayla]

@MarkusR  yes, this here has become very bad at nitpicking words...as it already knows they're all dual anyway. 

Something still arises in a form of willingness to offer relief somehow...

 

[Natasha]

@MarkusR Self-realized still have shadow work to do, and it doesn't happen overnight. 

 

[Mal]

@Natasha Thanks Natasha. With an attitude like yours you will go far in your path 

[Mal]

1 hour ago, MarkusR said:

@Kenya Please elaborate, how am I mislead, why is it a mistake to make distinctions in the way people act.

Because they are YOUR distinctions. The acts are temporary. Unless you are awakened you do not know and never will know actions that are egoic vs actions that are spontaneous.  Yes, even people who transcend their egos have a ton of shit to deal with. 

Ego is the problem you are right about that. But no ego doesn't mean perfect, it just means no ego. 

I challenge you to throw away the bullshit new age conception of ego and discover for yourself what your ego is.

Here's an analogy: Ego is like a cork in a champagne bottle. That's why most people have one, they dare not let go incase they get accosted by moralistic little shits.

I've had it with this forum, this is not a genuine self development forum 

Edited July 3, 2016 by Mal

[Huz]

@MarkusR Masters have mentioned that true personal development only happens after your awakening.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Huz

[MarkusR]

.

Edited July 3, 2016 by MarkusR

[Ayla]

I do not want to see this post transformed into yet another personal vendetta.

Thank you. 

[Leo Gura]

Yes, this is one of the wrinkles commonly encountered on this path.

Traditionally you would be beaten and yelled at for questioning a head monk in a Zen temple.

And that tradition still runs through many spiritual teachings.

But also there's something to it. Because many people who come into spiritual work are sooooo off-base that they need a good slap across the face to sober up from all their fantasies. The trick is in finding the right balance between harsh truths and compassion for the clueless newbie. Some teachers are more compassionate than others. Some teachers are less mature and self-developed than others. Some teachers are straight up assholes.

[Huz]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, this is one of the wrinkles commonly encountered on this path.

Traditionally you would be beaten and yelled at for questioning a head monk in a Zen temple.

And that tradition still runs through many spiritual teachings.

But also there's something to it. Because many people who come into spiritual work are sooooo off-base that they need a good slap across the face to sober up from all their fantasies. The trick is in finding the right balance between harsh truths and compassion for the clueless newbie. Some teachers are more compassionate than others. Some teachers are less mature and self-developed than others. Some teachers are straight up assholes.

And even some masters, like one of the most senior Zen masters Joshu Sasaki Roshi have been at the forefront of controversy. He was Shinzen Young's teacher (when Shinzen was himself a master), whom he was described the most senior Zen Roshi in the world and he was engaging in sexual misconduct with students.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Huz

[Leo Gura]

@Huz Sure, because Truth technically has nothing to do with morality or proper conduct.

One could know the Truth and nuke the entire planet, just like one could know that 1+1=2 and then murder their family. Knowing 1+1=2 isn't necessarily connected to any particular mode of behavior. Just because I know 1+1=2 doesn't necessarily mean I'll be nice to you.

Many spiritual aspirants make the mistake of conflating Truth with moral behavior. The reality is that immoral behavior is equally as true as moral behavior.