Subjective vs Objective Enlightenment?

[GodDesireOnlyLove]

@Serotoninluv  huge !

[Nahm]

@Anton Rogachevski

Assume all you like. 

A point does come where what worked in life and logic has reached the ceiling of duality, of thought. Then it’s time for what was avoided all along, with the very utilization of thinking. 

[Nahm]

@Serotoninluv Beautiful. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Serotoninluv

Can't say for sure there is "Real". It seems as though there is.

[Galyna]

The more I read other people comments, the more I understand how enlightened I am....

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Serotoninluv

Can't say for sure there is "Real". It seems as though there is.

Excellent!! This is reflective of exploration. 

To explore this area. . . Rather than intellectually categorizing things as either “real” or “imagined”, I found it helpful to relax the thinking and to experience - not through thought figuring - rather through experiencing through feelings, intuition, empathy, observation and beingness. For example, I spent about 4 months engaged in lucid dreaming - not just in dreams, also entering lucid dreams while I was awake. I explored many spaces that could be considered “sorta real and sorta imagined”. As well, sensory deprivation tanks can allow space to enter. . . I noticed you questioned wether psychedelics were just imaginations. This is another great place to explore. When the mind realizes a psychedelic experience is just as real as a “sober” experience and that a “sober” experience is just as imaginary as a psychedelic experience, there is massive mind expansion. However, some people will not want to venture here - especially people that are oriented toward grounded, concrete structure. Exploring the unknown can be very uncomfortable and groundless. For me, my initial explorations into what is real and imagined was associated with a lot of discomfort and anxiety. I started seeing how everything I thought was real is imagined and how everything I thought was imagined was real. This was very destabilizing for me and I went through a lot of confusion, uncertainty and anxiety. Yet, I was also fascinated and curious. Observing how the mind creates reality is one of the most fascinating and curious areas of life for me. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

7 minutes ago, Galyna said:

The more I read other people comments, the more I understand how enlightened I am....

You are welcome!

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Serotoninluv

I guess I'm divided exactly there: a part of me is really eager to dismiss reality completely, and the other part wants to use reason to simultaneously ground it in material reality.

That's super cool. How do you do lucid dreaming while awake? 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Anton Rogachevski

[GodDesireOnlyLove]

@Serotoninluv yes me too, that's why.. you know ;p ... deeply "turquoise fucked", it's still there somehow, but the imaginary is becoming as concrete as the imaginary. sort of being the same coin. It took me almost a year to integrate. Still not sure I integrated everything about it.

there is much more to explore, I can feel it. But that's pretty accurate.

[Forestluv]

59 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Serotoninluv

I guess I'm divided exactly there: a part of me is really eager to dismiss reality completely, and the other part wants to use reason to simultaneously ground it in material reality.

That's super cool. How do you do lucid dreaming while awake? 

This is just my experience. . . There was a time I was hearing others say things like “everything is a imaginary” or “we create our own reality through imagination”. There was something very intriguing about this. There were times I wanted to flip and thought “I want to dismiss reality. I think I would be better off and I’m curious what that is like. It seems like many spiritual people say everything is imaginary”. Looking back, I would say that desire was a seed that had the potential to grow, yet it was insufficient on it’s own. I’ve found that I just can’t think myself into believing something that I don’t believe. There are deeper levels. However, that desire was a key for me that opened doors. I started getting curious about real and imagined. Yet staying in the safety of my thinking mind was no longer satisfying. I wanted the actual direct experience. So, I started putting myself in environments to explore that through direct experience - sensory deprivation tanks, lucid dreaming, psychedelics etc. I started reading books and watching videos of people that have explored this. I got very curious. . . However, if I had the mindset of “the experiences of lucid dreaming, sensory deprivations tanks and psychedelics are just imagination, they aren’t real”, I’ve already closed the door to the exploration, before I even started.

Regarding lucid dreaming. . . I am not an advanced with lucid dreaming. Yet, last summer I got a good taste of it that opened up my world. I rarely remember dreams and had previously tried to lucid dream with little success. Last June, I suddenly started remembering dreams every night. Between 1-4 dreams every night. This surprised me and I saw it as a great opportunity to explore. Plus, I had time off from work, so I could write down all the dreams throughout the night and sleep in if I wanted to. This led to spaces that were “sorta dreamy, sorta not dreamy” in which I couldn’t tell wether it was an “actual dream” or not. This was the first crack in my hard categorization of what counts as “a dream”. Yet importantly, this was through direct experience, not theorizing. . . The boundaries between what is a dream and what isn’t a dream started to break down. One of the big breakthroughs is when a scene in a sleeping dream manifested in waking life. Exactly the same. The sleeping dream manifested right in front of me in waking life. The two worlds came together and there was an energetic shift. This opened new doors. . . 

In terms of lucid dreaming while awake. . . I’ve reverted back to rarely remembering dreams and unfortunately I no longer lucid dream while sleeping. However, I’m now much better at lucid dreaming while awake. For me, the key is to fully relax the thinking mind that wants to control the narrative. If there are lucid dream appearances and my mind dismisses it, it is a block. For example, if a lucid dream glimpse with an “entry portal” and the mind thinks “that appearance was just my imagination. It wasn’t real. It was probably just the wind” - that portal slams shut. You mentioned that part of you wants to dismiss reality. For me, this is not the key. The key is the mind wanting to dismiss dream appearances. My analytical thinking mind needs to relax - deeply. This can involve lots of letting go and is much harder when the mind is active. Either through theorizing or pre-occupation. If I am busy with my job and have lots of stuff to do, it’s much harder to enter these states of consciousness. . . The opposite side is trying to “make it happen” - trying to stop all thoughts and push things away - this is also a block. It’s more about letting go and allowing what arises. One thing that helps is setting an intention. If I think “OK, I’m gonna try out this lucid dream while awake thing. It’s probably BS or just imagined, yet I suppose I’l try and see.” The mind is closed and I’m setting myself up for a self-fulfilling confirmation bias. Afterwards I may think “See, nothing happened. No other “realms” appeared. Just regular thoughts. I knew it wasn’t real”. . . A much better orientation is a childlike mind of curiosity and anticipation. . . . I couple environments to deeply relax are yin yoga and laying in nature, sometimes for a couple hours - and reaching deeper and deeper levels of letting go. Thoughts like “what’s supposed to happen? Am I doing this right? Was that a dream appearance? I don’t think this is working, I’ve got shit to do” are at a surface level of consciousness. For me, a small dose of a psychedelic or cannabis edible can give me a bit of a lift. I’ve explored it enough that I can now access while sober, yet it usually takes some effort and often isn’t that strong. Yet often can be. There have been conscious waking states while sober that were full-on lucid dream. For me, my mindset and environment are key factors that interact with each other. Extended time in nature and also who I’m with. I’ve met a few people that have a particular resonance that helps bring me there. I know a few people that seem naturally resonating with these other realms - not immature people that are disorganized and all over the place. There are a few people that can ground in the groundless and this can help open doors. A have one friend that I can pretty much “turn it on and off” when I’m with her. . . Yet the mind will often resist, which makes environment so important. In the begging, when I was in a public place and starting losing touch with “real and imagined” it was very unsettling and caused anxiety. Yet now I’m used to it. It doesn’t even make sense for me to call it “real vs dream” anymore, because it’s all a mixture. I no longer think “Hmmm, was that experience in nature real, a lucid dream or a dream?”. It’s all beingness, appearances and explorations. When it’s practical, I can still categorize things to communicate and function, yet it’s no longer my default state of mind. 

I’m attracted to experiencing different states of consciousness and after seeing enough of them, it becomes pretty obvious that they are all “altered states of consciousness”, including various sober states. 

[Mu_]

4 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Nahm

Why though? Both actuality and logic are absolutely subjective so to speak.

One subjective appearance is trying to to depict another subjective appearance with a third subjective appearance. 

Surely if one wanted to disqualify an argument which threatens his worldview it would be easy to dismiss it all as "just thoughts."

Your in a highly sophisticated (if you will) conviction, a conviction based by layers that feel so intrinsically so, you can't see the floor that your arguing from isn't resting on what you think it is (its actually not a floor to begin with).  Body, brain, subjective, objective, conscious states, logical states, are a house of cards you may need to penetrate really into to find out if any of those are actual and real to begin with, LIKE REALLY DIG.  You may come to a final burial site in which you realize you just can't dig any further and know anything about anything.  In this tomb, you may feel like you've gone insane and that you can never know anything in any confidence.  Its here that it may become more clear what nahm is pointing to (even though it contradicts in thought that you know 100% you can't KNOW anything).

Most likely we've all been in this same place you have.  To help with a little more direction what I talking about is,  Can you see that you hold some idea's in which you argue another point of view from??

Like you started this thread with a notion of a Brain and what it does and doesn't do.... are you 100% sure of all these ideas?  And if there is a .00000000000000000000000000000001% chance it may not be what it seems, let that in and accept you don't know.

Is there a subjective?  What exactly is a subjective?  Are you 100% sure that's what a subjective is and is it what you are supposedly going through................... again ANY doubt, then just admit you don't know

What is a you?  What is the definition of a you or a I?  Is this definition correct, is it proven?  Do you's and I's exist?  Any doubt?  Then again REALLY admit its unknown. 

Do this with EVERYTHING till it can't be done anymore.

Here you may find what your wondering......

Edited April 23, 2020 by Mu_

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Serotoninluv

Very cool! Thank you for sharing.

@Mu_

Just pushing the boundaries of mind. I get what he's saying.

 I suspect it might be a grand ideology that seekers buy into, and end up reaching through confirmation bias via altered states. I also suspect that the problem is that I'm too grounded in the materialist paradigm, since I have not had many higher states.

[Mu_]

1 hour ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Serotoninluv

Very cool! Thank you for sharing.

@Mu_

Just pushing the boundaries of mind. I get what he's saying.

 I suspect it might be a grand ideology that seekers buy into, and end up reaching through confirmation bias via altered states. I also suspect that the problem is that I'm too grounded in the materialist paradigm, since I have not had many higher states.

I see.  But to "get" what he is saying there may be a need to "get" there to understand.  It may not be easy, it may not be hard at all.  But the introspection I pointed you towards may yield some interesting results if you try and are interested.

[Anton Rogachevski]

Let us not forget about the power of hypnosis and placebo. If you read or listen to teachers don't you think hypnosis is taking place?

[Nak Khid]

 

On 4/23/2020 at 7:05 AM, Anton Rogachevski said:

What troubles me lately is the function of a brain to turn off the ability to
distinguish reality from imagination. It happens everytime we dream,
because the weird things in a dream would immediately be recognized as not real
in a conscious state, but in order for the dream to keep
going we gotta have the ability to ignore the weirdness - to perceive it as normal and real.
 

Why are you troubled by this?   

[Nak Khid]

On 4/23/2020 at 7:05 AM, Anton Rogachevski said:

Guess what, the brain is activating that function using its own secreted DMT.

Now who's to say that psychedelics don't do just that: turn off the
brain's ability to distinguish imagination from reality. This is a scary
thought because it threatens all the insights we bring back.
 

Somebody can recall a dream or a trip.  So why is there a threat to insights?  

There are different types of meditation with different aims. 
Other types of meditation might be purposed toward having a mystical experience that might be a visionary dream-like experience similar to a degree with artist imagination.  In Vipassana also known as Insight  meditation but the type of insight they are talking about is different. 

insight

noun. an instance of apprehending the true nature of a thing, especially through intuitive understanding

The method in Vipassana is in a way opposite of forms of mediation which lead toward mystical or ecstatic experience (although occasionally they might experience sensations of that type)  
The goal in Vipassana is to "see things as they are".    So when the practitioner sits they still themselves and begin to observe what their body and mind are doing and quickly note them by mentally labeling them, "thought" "thought" "thought"  or in noticing an irregularity in one's breath "irregularity" , a stiffness in the back "stiffness"  "Stiffness"  .   Maybe earlier in the day you got angry and remember it for a moment "angry " "angry" "angry" .

Etc.  etc.   You can't stop the mind from bringing up these thoughts and feelings.  This process of labeling is a way of letting go of these various things that the mind brings up and trains the mind not to become attached to them.  Sometimes sitting still like that for a time some weirder mystical visionary things might happen or  profound sense of tranquility might happen, but are labeled in the same way and not clung to, not something to "bring back" .

So the type of insight they are talking about here is to become more still to the point where you can become aware of how all of these thing the mind brings up, whether it's an itch on the back, a mystical experience,  boredom,  an emotion, these are all treated the same way.
The "insight" part is not some revelation or intense experience it's observation of how the mind generates reactions to things so that when not meditating one can have a clearer relatively more objective view of reality when not meditating.   So sitting and not doing anything, not taking in any outside stimulation it gives you a better situation to notice all the automatic and repetitive feelings, and thoughts that the mind generates. 
Being human we never fully eliminate these things we just become better at being aware of our mind's little alarms and realize we have the option not to react to them if we don't want to and let them rise and fall more quickly.   

In the dream state the mind is free to wander and the brain paralyzes the body so it is safe for you not to get up and wander around with your eyes closed.   Then when awake another part of the brain engages and it has a survival instinct.   This part of the brain does it's best to distinguish  real from illusion to beware of threats to one's existence.  
Suppose you have a dream and you hear a dog bark. So what?    But while sleeping there's still part of your brain ready to  detect something external if it occurs. You are sleeping and you hear your dog bark.   Your survival brain says "you need to check why the dog is barking at 3 A.M.,  could someone be trying to break in the house? Did the dog get hurt?".   So the brain will allow wandering imaginative thoughts to occur if they are internal but not if outside stimuli occurs. If this happens  this other part jumps out and tries to distinguish what is real and what is not real.    
Sometimes a dream gets scary and the brain is not sure if it's real so it might wake  you up  to check on things. 
And if you ingest certain chemicals and it could disrupt the brain's ability to make this distinction to varying degrees. One can prepare for that

On 4/23/2020 at 7:05 AM, Anton Rogachevski said:

Subjective vs Objective Enlightenment?

It's subjective and monks are instructed not to say if they are considered to be "enlightened" or not. 

Some traditions may regard "enlightenment"  as a mystical visionary experience or a state of bliss. 
Others may regard it as the most sober, in a sense, condition possible, awareness, not of the infinity of the universe
but acute awareness of the present the sound of an acorn hitting the ground on a Thursday at 6:24, the detail of it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by Nak Khid

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Nak Khid

Thank you! Very good insight.

[Mu_]

10 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Let us not forget about the power of hypnosis and placebo. If you read or listen to teachers don't you think hypnosis is taking place?

How could we remember or forget or even know about something called hypnosis or placebo if we are all supposedly under it?  Let that in for a moment.