the illusion of utopia equality or end of hierarchy

[LfcCharlie4]

@Meta-Man You are explaining this really well. 
 

Essentially how Self-Realised beings explain this phenomenon, i.e. Rupert Spira and Francis Lucille. 
 

You do things because you want to and as a celebration instead of a need to and to make yourself happy. 
 

You no longer “need” sex to be happy, but you may want the celebrate the connection you have with another being through sexual intimacy. 
 

you don’t need to play football, but you may want to go have some fun and play a few games of football with your friends, or heck play to a decent level because you enjoy it. And guess what life is about: enjoyment and happiness. 
 

When you are absolutely happy you are free to do whatever you want. 
 

Although with a true awakening, that “whatever” will always come from love and understanding. Hence Ramana Maharshi wasn’t a child rapist or murderer etc 

Francis calls tbis “impersonal desire” and I think that is as good as concepts and words can get in explaining this. 
 

 

 

[Scholar]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you could generate the taste of cake using your mind, you'd never need to eat cake. Since you lack that ability, you require cake to give you that taste.

What is the difference between eating the cake and generating the taste of cake using your Mind?

 

You are contradicting yourself. You have limited yourself, and now you complain about how much you have limited yourself. But notice that you can only complain about your limitations because that is part of your limitation. You are playing your own game.

 

When you are unlimited, you say "What else is there to do but limit myself?", and when you are limited, you say "What else is there to do but unlimit myself?". Fundamentally, what is the difference between the two?

This is not just a particular thing you do, this is the Nature of Doing.

This is Destiny, true Destiny.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Scholar

[electroBeam]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you could generate the taste of cake using your mind, you'd never need to eat cake. Since you lack that ability, you require cake to give you that taste.

If you could give yourself a proper orgasm, you wouldn't need sex. You use people like pawns precisely because you need them to get what you can't otherwise get.

Even if you had a million cakes every day, you'd still be depressed. Desire literally is suffering. Gratification is suffering. Letting go of gratification and desire is happiness.

Developing visualisation abilities to that extent would fuck you up even more than the strip. Gratification would be ridiculously viable.

Thats why virtual reality is a sleep machine. The world wont know what sleep is till everyone is using VR

[LfcCharlie4]

@electroBeam When you are completely fulfilled, happy and at peace and conscious of your true nature. (Everyone is The Self/ Awareness etc just don’t know it) you don’t have “personal desires” to make you happy. 

You simply have “impersonal desires” as The Absolute as a means to express, share and celebrate this understanding. Life becomes a celebration in every moment. 
 

You then won’t need these things that come from like e.g. Excess junk food. 
 

There is a huge difference between binging on junk food out of lack and due to say depression, and having a slice of cake to celebrate someone’s birthday at a social gathering. 
 

In one without the food you will be miserable, depressed, upset. 
 

In the other, if you eat the cake, great you’ll enjoy it and move on, if it runs out and you don’t get any, oh well you’re still going to be happy either way. 
 

Be careful not to demonise living life while you’re here. There’s plenty of time to be an avatar once you drop the body, if you have completed your spiritual journey in this lifetime. 

 

[Scholar]

13 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

Even if you had a million cakes every day, you'd still be depressed. Desire literally is suffering. Gratification is suffering. Letting go of gratification and desire is happiness.

Developing visualisation abilities to that extent would fuck you up even more than the strip. Gratification would be ridiculously viable.

Thats why virtual reality is a sleep machine. The world wont know what sleep is till everyone is using VR

You cannot truly hide the Truth. God has spent billions of years carefully constructing ways to hide the Truth from itself. VR is nothing in comparison to that.

Will you spend eternity fully Awake, and you will spent eternity Asleep. There is no difference.

[tenta]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The suffering happens when you try to deny or suppress your natural bodily desires.

Just look at how much all these no-fappers suffer. They are at war with themselves.

If I want to fuck, I will fuck and enjoy it, and roll it into my spiritual practice.

And if I stop wanting to ever fuck again, then that will be that.

But if you don't want to meditate, you still do?

[electroBeam]

25 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@electroBeam
Be careful not to demonise living life while you’re here. There’s plenty of time to be an avatar once you drop the body, if you have completed your spiritual journey in this lifetime. 

 

It doesn't really matter if you're an avatar or not at that stage.

If you're an avatar, great. If you did mahasamadhi great. But if mahasamadhi is the way for you, enlightenment means you accept that and allow it. You've got absolutely no stakes in the game of life.

 

If you would like to call god's will impersonal desires, thats good. But at that stage, there is no desiring, because there's no sense of ego or self. And God doesn't desire, God just does. That's the way of the will. The will manifests so fast that there's no time for the desire to set in. God's already doing what he wants before you've realized.

 

There are lots of things that we do because of interpretations of reality. These interpretations are ego. Ego isnt just sense of self, its all of maya. Its the physical universe itself. You need to be careful thinking enlightenment is just realizing oneness. It goes well beyond that, every sounds, sight and smell has to be recontextualized from a non human standpoint. You can't see food as something you need to eat otherwise you will die. Because you're not a human. You need to recontextualize what food is. You can't see your family or sex the same way aswell. Many spiritual teachers like mooji have sex scandals even though they are apparently enlightened. You don't normally do this with a new recontextualization. But you could id there is still ego lingering around. I've personally done the work to recontextualize food, and through inquiry work stripped away its meaning so its just raw sensations. Eating happens spontaneously and just by allowing consciousness to flow. You really need to do this for everything to fully relieve all suffering. 

And this is why celibacy and living as a monk has its strong points, because every time an unenlightened person has sex(for pleasure) eats(for pleasure), etc. They reinforce those old, human contextualizations and meanings of being a human, and ego. Every time you have an urge or craving, you need to question it severely and strip away its meaning, or recontextualize it. You don't really do this by binge eating or by having sex IME. For people who are enlightened, it doesnt matter either way, there's no skin in the game for them.

Edited April 16, 2020 by electroBeam

[LfcCharlie4]

@electroBeam You do you man. 
 

Awakening and embodiment is the end of so called “suffering” at least in my experience. Of course painful sensations and what not exist, however, with complete acceptance and appreciation of each and every moment these are no longer seen as a problem whatsoever. 
 

“I” am already completely happy and at peace. 
 

In regards to Sex Scandals, this is due to not being fully awakened/ no awakening to love/ The Self being all, you don’t see the likes of Ramana, Rupert, Francis etc participating in sex scandals. 
 

Awakening has depths, it isn’t black and white. If you wish to pursue the life you are after go for it, but in my view spirituality has transmuted to the west for a reason. 
 

It’s time to embody the teachings in daily life and in all areas of life, and actually begin to create a “world” based on this understanding, and not based on fear, lack and greed. 
 

Of course absolutely speaking it doesn’t matter either way. 
 

But, relatively speaking living life based on this will have huge implications, and gradually we will see these structures and societies fall and be replaced. 
 

Society changes one individual at a time. As more people “wake up” they aren’t going to accept what we have going on right now (relatively speaking) 

I also understand why monks and yogis practice celibacy in the seeking stage, however, after true awakening it isn’t really necessary, unless it happens naturally, same as with what you are talking about. 
 

I wish you luck on your journey  

[The observer]

4 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

But, relatively speaking living life based on this will have huge implications, and gradually we will see these structures and societies fall and be replaced. 

Society changes one individual at a time. As more people “wake up” they aren’t going to accept what we have going on right now (relatively speaking)

interesting discussion so far but perhaps uve missed my opening post and the following discussion.. the bottom line is that this spiritual vision or utopia is a pipe dream.. u might wanna take a look and then kindly give me ur feedback 

[LfcCharlie4]

@The observer Like Leo said, we have developed hugely over the last 10 years, perfection may not be possible but huge improvements certainly are and will happen gradually  

[The observer]

10 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

@The observer Like Leo said, we have developed hugely over the last 10 years, perfection may not be possible but huge improvements certainly are and will happen gradually  

i cant believe u guys. u dont seem to get my point at all. are u aware that the improvement ur taking pride of are in fact an advancement of the spiritual agenda on the expense of other agendas? u cant satisfy all agendas together. some agendas will always be left behind and then they will rebel and in effect advance themselves once again while the dominant agenda will likely not have the same motivation to stay on top so it will lose its grip and start declining. its an eternal dance between self and no self. there cannot be only self neither only no self and it has to be both. thats my message and this will probably be my last post on this topic.

[LfcCharlie4]

@The observer I never said it would be easy. 
 

Growth often comes at a cost as you clearly know, the falling of systems is going to be devastating, but also necessary. 
 

As more people become more conscious we will see more and more “conscious politics”, I mean in any other time in history have you had Non-Duality on Show the amount it is, even forums like this are such a sign of progress it’s unbelievable.

As I said society changes one individual at a time. 
 

The utopia you’re thinking about won’t happen for 100s if not 1000s of years. 
 

A perfect example would be communism, I mean that may never work in its pure form, but the art of the world working together for the greater good of humanity instead of against each other, and coming from love, happiness and understanding is 1000s of years away as it requires most of the population to be at Turquoise and be somewhat awake. 
 

Hence why it will never work with power hungry dictators and leaders. Even with everyone at Turquoise it may not even work, but you can bet we’d live in a much fairer and loving society, probably a mix of Socialism and capitalism without the huge wealth gaps we see today, and with some sort of baseline level of wealth and security instead of people with 15 yachts and super cars, and others without clean water and a roof over their head. 
 

Gettinf their is the tricky bit. 
 

and it won’t happen in one go, but will be gradual like you said, and probably with LOTS of backslides 

[Iksander]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't hold your breath.

I'll bet all my money that you will be a horn dog in your next lifetime.

I'm fucking howling with laughter at this 

[billiesimon]

@Leo Gura You generally (and zen masters too) talk about awakening as the liberation from the illusion of the "videogame character".

In this discussion you say that you are still trapped in a body, and that's absolutely true, but....

Doesn't an enlightened person perceive its ego and body as just a videogame character that they are playing? 
I'm not saying that an awakened being has no bodily desires. I'm sure zen masters have desires.

What I'm saying is.... does the zen master recognize that he is just a videogame character and that he is actually the videogame creator? This should create some sort of separation from the egoic desires and his own awareness.

Of course he feels the needs, but... aren't those needs perceived as a videogame roleplaying? So what's the point of awakening then?

[billiesimon]

@Leo Gura Isn't this the point of siddhartha's path to become buddha? 

He left home exactly to discover that pain and desires are a videogame roleplaying; a creator forgetting about creating a fictional character. Isn't it like that from your experience too?

[The observer]

@LfcCharlie4 u think there will be a point where the ego says ok its enough now i have fulfilled my purpose and its time to rip? u think it is possible to transcend the ego collectively? then perhaps uve missed the last i dont know how many centuries of human development and perhaps uve missed how nature works. survival for the fittest and every one thinks hes the fittest. u think u and ur ideals are fittest. trump thinks he and his ideals are fittest. hitler thinks he and his ideals are fittest. i think me and my ideals are fittest. but does any of that actually make any one fittest? at turquoise u dont have an agenda or ideals at turquoise u are one with reality what ever reality is and what ur describing is a stage green dream of his ideal world when at turquoise u realise that it doesnt work that way at all. the basic assumption all of u seem to be taking for granted is that reality is not already the best it could be. ur perspective then interferes and distorts ur perception by thinking oh well if more ppl could become more like me then certainly the world would become a better place. the truth is that whether every one is like u or not is in fact irrelevant to how good the world is since its absolutely good and u said that here and many times before i guess but then u make a clever distinction between absolute and relative truth and miss the fact that the relative truth ur talking about is ur own creation b cuz it fits ur agendas. for trump he may not be interested in absolute truth but that wont matter to him b cuz he takes his relative truth to be the absolute truth like u also do with urs. so u see? from ur pov it makes perfect sense that a world full of ppl like u would be a better place and so u probably will strive towards actualizing that vision but exactly in that attempt to alter reality u will create more minions of urself and those minions will in turn try to influence other ppl to make them minions of u too and then u and ur minions will have to face other leaders and their minions in the world and then each of u will try to minion the other to become more like him (perhaps like im doing right now haha) and then there will be a clash between the two not necessarily physical but certainly strong enough to stop or decrease the expansion of both sides. of course in the story above i used two sides for simplicity but in reality there are many sides that ultimately could be narrowed down into two sides so thats ultimately the epitome of nonduality and the yin and yang they are one in essence but theyre still not the same and thats what im saying here reality is different from other povs and when theres only two povs their realities become in opposition to each other and if reality ever became permanently one and stopped fighting with itself it would fall out and die so thats why utopia is impossible b cuz its a dream of one part of reality and if u get all parts to agree with u on that dream reality will then it will stop existing b cuz u will cause its death by emphasising the yin over the yang or vice versa. u might say no im emphasising balance but if thats so then why change any thing? reality is already balanced. and the answer is that b cuz u (ego) would die if u dont desire change so u must have a purpose for ur ego to survive and while u claim to be antagonistic to ego u will become a big advocate of it and so it goes on and on and thats why its a never ending process.. hope u enjoyed reading this and the whole discussion i did enjoy your posts 

Edited April 16, 2020 by The observer

[electroBeam]

8 hours ago, Meta-Man said:

@electroBeam

You can move to the jungle, but ‘you’ and your problems will stay with you. The way to transcendence is inward, not outward. Celibacy doesn’t work. It can backfire horribly. Just ask the pope and his friends. Go inward and things will fall in place on its own.

That sounds good in theory, but practically speaking you're gonna grow a lot more in the jungle.

If you're trying to loose weight, its a lot easier to do that when you have no junk food in your pantry. As opposed to having lots of junk food in your pantry and being tempted to eat it.

Once you are off the cravings, you can go back to having junk food in your pantry. But until then off to the jungle!

But that's hard to do, you need to work on it.

[LfcCharlie4]

@The observer

 

Sorry if my message came across like that and it’s nothing to do with being like me, each being is a unique expression of the absolute. And if everyone was like me the world would be a disaster. 
 

What I am talking about is more and more people realising absolute truth, becoming more conscious and developing further etc, nothing to do with me, as it’s simply consciousness becoming conscious of itself. 
 

You’re right it won’t happen for a very long time. I don’t dispute that. Watch Leo’s conscious politics series I think he covers it extremely well there. 
 

When the system is geared towards people actualising, living their purpose and awakening to their true being I feel society will look very different compared to when the system is geared towards creating cogs in a machine. 

I understNd your point and you’re talking about ideologies people have. As you know by now awakening isn’t an ideology, it isn’t a belief system, it is THIS. For example love isn’t something you believe in, it’s what you are. And then naturally from this place you live life from love, that’ll be very different, that’s all I’m saying. 
 

Im also not saying I have all of the answers on how and when it will happen, and the exact system and how many years etc. But, as more people awaken it will change. Just like as more people developed and realised slavery was wrong, or that racism shouldn’t be the norm, or that Women should vote, etc.

Turquoise wants what is best for humanity overall and what is best for the Planet and it’s people, you think it can’t push for political change? Not all Turquoise beings will just go and meditate on a mountain forever. 

[Leo Gura]

What I have seen is this:

When your consciousness goes fully infinite, even the notion of eating cake or experiencing life becomes extraneous. If you were infinitely conscious you would be so complete and full, so not lacking in anything, that life itself would become obsolete and come to an end. You would simply exist as pure Infinite Love forever.

If you are still here eating cake, you're not complete. Your love is indirect.

Just to experience life is already an act of seperation and bias. And with it must come lack, because your highest form is pure formless Love. Until you are an absolute Unity, you are lacking something. When you are an absolute Unity, there is need for celebration or enjoyment of even life. You are too united for such games. They are all indirect. Life itself is indirect.

Life is for kids who are too scared of Infinite Love forever.

[electroBeam]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What I have seen is this:

When your consciusness goes fully infinite, even the notion of eating cake or experiencing life becomes extraneous. If you were infinitely conscious you would be so complete and full, so not lacking in anything, that life itself would become obsolete and come to an end. You would simply exist as pure Infinite Love forever.

If you are still here eating cake, you're not complete. Your love is indirect.

that's exactly what I've experienced too. Basically full awakening is mahasamadhi.

You can realize your true nature and be an avatar or however you want to describe it. But to fully release ALL suffering, ALL, its mahasamadhi, or leaving the body.

I'm sure Adyshanti, Rupert Spira, and others are highly enlightened, but I do not think they are completely free of suffering. If they were, they would have left their bodies. They are highly likely to have micro suffering, little annoyances and irritations that are too small to worry about, but are there. 

 

Its possible to fully not be a human. The ego = maya. Its not just sense of self. Its all of Maya. Its the physical world, your perceptions of food and cake, your bed, a house, etc. Its possible to fully leave the physical universe completely. DMT machine elves are ego. All meaning attached to sensations IS ego. And its possible to fully morph into a bird and completely recontextualise every attached meaning to BE a bird. I've done it, and there are shaman techniques for it. You can go further into DMT realms and even further into mahasamadhi.

Nothing wrong with keeping those attached meanings. But you can go a lot further.

Like literally, if you didn't have an ego, you wouldn't know what a house is. Birds don't know what houses are. They don't even know what the physical world is. If you know what a house is, its through ego. THAT IS EGO. YOURE STARING AT IT!

Time and memories is also ego. DMT machine elves don't know what time is. Go ask them. 

Its possible to stare at a hot woman, and not tell whether a bird or woman is hotter. Its possible to see them as an alien life form. That's because 'hotness' is relative and purely attached meaning. If you know what a hot woman is, that's ego. 

If you really wanted to, you could completely recontextualize all of the physical universe, and shape shift into a DMT land. There's so many possibilities if you try. Its extremely hard to do, but its possible. And being a monk and trying to transcend and recontextualize attached meanings is how you get there. Its very hard to get there any other way IME. 

 

In retrospect, maybe I'm talking about the occult. If so, enlightenment (self realization) + occult is an epic combo. 

Edited April 17, 2020 by electroBeam