the illusion of utopia equality or end of hierarchy

[The observer]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

In ancient Rome, 30-40% of the population were slaves.

in our modern societies 90-99% of the population are slaves. we are labour working for the top 1% that control our resources to preserve the system from falling. of course its not just one system but rather a system within a system within a system within a system. if we stop right now we will get killed b cuz otherwise we will cause the system to collapse and nobody wants that even the poor and even highly conscious ppl are still victims and dependent on the system. its such a difficult situation were in right now. in exchange for our lives we give up our freedom.

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

When a neighboring city was conquered, all of its men would have their throats slit, all the women and children would be raped and sold as slaves. That's the true meaning of a war. Every citizen's life is on the line and they know it. If the wall is breached, everyone is fucked.

One of the biggest reasons men joined the army and went to war is that if they won, they got to rape all the women for free. For many this was their only chance for sex.

We've made some progress.

well that still happens today only in a different form. its just a disguise leo u from all ppl should be able to see through it. mating in our modern societies is not easy too. for ppl who lived centuries ago it probably was completely acceptable to fight for sex that was certainly not a big deal like we assume today. in their minds killing for sex is the same as learning pua in this day and age we only think its normal b cuz its whats available and mainstream but even so its still not easy to meet ur needs u have to work so hard to earn the necessary skills for having a successful and sustainable fulfillment (u from all the ppl should know haha) and even then u could still be out competed by other chimps so mating was never easy. u might think its easier today relative to back then but what im saying is that its quite the opposite. back then it was easier b cuz they didnt have much egos to protect in a sense they were freer b cuz they wouldnt trade their freedom for their lives. they were willing to live completely fulfilled or die trying they were immortal while were imprisoned r now by fear and so we suffer as a result b cuz weve sold our souls to the devil.

Edited April 15, 2020 by The observer

[tenta]

1 hour ago, The observer said:

please dont make me repeat my self my point isnt about options. yes sure clearly we do have a good variety of options today but these options r in fact an illusion b cuz we dont actually need them for survival we only need food and water and may be sex. these individualized options r the result of the sophisticated systems weve created so far followed by questioning them but thats a never ending process and more options will keep coming as we keep questioning them probably to infinity. do u realise that we r merely expanding the gap between our desire (survival) and the effective ways to fulfill it? instead of simply growing or breeding or hunting for food we do extremely complex processes to fulfil our needs. how stupid is that? but thats not random. ppl r actively preserving this hierarchy out of ignorance and out of fear and weakness. thats the whole idea that im presenting but these r my limits i cant explain any further. i also even go further and claim that its nearly impossible to break that cycle no matter how u try and that every trial is in fact a step further from breaking it. of course these r just my thoughts r now and of course i could be wrong but thats how im convinced things work at the moment and every thing is possible 

You keep relying on saying "I'm repeating myself" but the solution you proposed would still have you struggling for survival, just in a different way. If you really believed that doing it the modern way is stupid then you'd say life in the wilderness is preferable, but it's not, we're not just doing things in a "more complicated way" were doing it in a way where you don't have to risk your life to survive.

The 2 reasons I gave weren't an exhaustive list of what makes life now less hierarchical (if your boss can't kill you, that means less hierarchy, this is obvious) than 4 thousand years ago.

If you re-read my solution you'll see I wasn't saying it will break the whole cycle of hierarchy.

[tenta]

1 hour ago, The observer said:

in our modern societies 90-99% of the population are slaves.

That's a bad comparison because in ancient rome the people above the slaves still had to work.

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Maxu said:

@Leo Gura

How is it possible that even after being in a state of "no-mind" for so long you can still be pummelled with sexual thoughts? Shouldn't the mind be rewired after a long time of being in that state?

What about the "Brahmachari" that claim they are no longer interested in sex after doing various techniques? Are you saying that's bullshit?

Also what about females? You only speak of men being "horn dogs" but women are the sexual selectors so they determine men to act this way through selecting these types of men. You only seem to speak about the male role in sex as though it's the only one that's relevant and females have a low responsibility in contributing to these dynamics.

Do females still desire sex after prolonged enlightenment or does it manifest in a different way? We don't seem to have enough knowledge about enlightened females, or at least Leo doesn't.

Like I said, sex is deeply wired in you. Good luck undoing that regardless of who you are.

It is possible, but I wouldn't bet on it. Most monks and so forth are merely suppressing it, which means they have the sexual craving but they hide it in order to fit the image of being a good monk.

[Leo Gura]

I notice many of you here have very naive notions of how survival, politics, and economics works.

You are watching some shallow stuff on YT and getting sucked into simplistic ideologies. This is not in line with our work here, which requires deep study and contemplation.

[The observer]

2 hours ago, tenta said:

You keep relying on saying "I'm repeating myself" but the solution you proposed would still have you struggling for survival, just in a different way. If you really believed that doing it the modern way is stupid then you'd say life in the wilderness is preferable, but it's not, we're not just doing things in a "more complicated way" were doing it in a way where you don't have to risk your life to survive.

i dont say go and live in the wilderness is the solution and i dont dismiss the value of the mind. i guess also most of our deaths r not due to other species killing us but rather humans killing each other so what im saying is that if ppl stopped killing each other (and thats impossible due to the existence of hierarchies welcome to reality) then eventually we would have to destroy the systems we were using b cuz theyre ineffective at surviving us and survival would become much easier b cuz then we could keep the good stuff and information weve learned and build up on it as complete individuals with each individual looking out for his own needs and his own needs only until all irrelevant and illusory desires (karma) burn out and then that would leave us in a utopia 

u might ask why are hierarchies a prerequisite for violence? and the answer is b cuz of ego so i guess we have two choices here either we submit to the hierarchy with our will ie remain asleep labouring (go with the flow) or we wake up to the truth and do something of any kind about it (resist the hierarchy aka evolution) which will definitely face a reaction (resisting evolution) of any kind too from the system. the latter case is what seems to be actually happening and so here we are today stealing freedom from our young by indoctrinating them in schools and for what? for teaching them how to survive. yes 12 years of ur childhood was mainly about abusing u physically mentally and emotionally supposedly for teaching u how to survive but unfortunately u werent awake to this truth i assume until now. so instead of teaching u how to simply peacefully grow ur own plants they taught u how to be extremely deceptive in order to stay alive no matter how much u might suffer for it and thats just one example out of many. so now u have to go through one of the two scenarios i proposed above u either go back to sleep or try to do something about it the latter which will most likely be the case and so u will attempt to create a new set of deceptions to cover that up and thats basically whats happening all the time.

even ppl at the top of the hierarchy are in a sense laboring to the system b cuz their survival is dependent on the system functioning well and if it some how stopped working their egos would face a huge existential crisis and they would get violent so theyre also slaves to the system in that sense. really what were doing here as human is extremely stupid just b cuz were afraid of losing our lives we accept to lose our freedom and yet we convince ourselves that we are actually free and becoming freer every day while the opposite is the case and then after a while some ppl wake up and try to wake others up and they end up fighting with each other all the time over which system is better and perhaps thats what im doing here so im probably just adding another layer to the whole mess. when thinking about this i find the most accurate analogy is labour building pyramids.

2 hours ago, tenta said:

The 2 reasons I gave weren't an exhaustive list of what makes life now less hierarchical (if your boss can't kill you, that means less hierarchy, this is obvious) than 4 thousand years ago.

the problem with securing survival is that its never the case. yes we might think were more protected right now but in reality any one can kill any one regardless of the punishment. and statistics dont help here b cuz i have but one life. even in the utopian world im imagining its not possible to ensure survival we can only try to increase our chances but we could still die at any moment so were only imagining a better present and even then we go on and imagine a better future without realising that its just a change in appearance not substance 

2 hours ago, tenta said:

If you re-read my solution you'll see I wasn't saying it will break the whole cycle of hierarchy.

i see

2 hours ago, tenta said:

That's a bad comparison because in ancient rome the people above the slaves still had to work.

yes i hinted on this point above. were not very different from ancient rome were all slaves to the system even the ppl at the top are slaves to the system its merely a change in appearance ie an illusion we all come and go but the system (devil) remains untouched in essence b cuz were sustaining it and feeding it our freedom with our fear

Edited April 15, 2020 by The observer

[The observer]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

sex is deeply wired in you. Good luck undoing that regardless of who you are.

as im waking up to seeing the actual structure of the system im spontaneously losing interest in sex now it just seems like some thing ive been brainwashed to believe is important and worth chasing when in fact its not. suddenly its not enjoyable like it was before. if its not directly related to my survival it doesnt make sense to desire sex to begin with its just dumb. right now im waiting for my karmas to burn their selves out and perhaps then i will be totally free

Edited April 15, 2020 by The observer

[Maxu]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Like I said, sex is deeply wired in you. Good luck undoing that regardless of who you are.

It is possible, but I wouldn't bet on it. Most monks and so forth are merely suppressing it, which means they have the sexual craving but they hide it in order to fit the image of being a good monk.

Doesn't awareness of non-duality help relinquish at least some of the sexual cravings? Male and female merging into one. Pain and pleasure merging into one. Realizing they are imaginary? You are very experienced with this Leo so I'm trying to pick your mind. I know you're a young guy so you're probably still horny most times but I've had a relatively prolonged state of high consciousness (two days lol) and I went from horny to completely neutral after being pummelled with thoughts of prime honies all day every day prior. This neutralization lasted about two weeks in which I've been cleared of even a tinge of lust (monkey mind returned recently so I fell back into it). But I've never experienced this abrupt of a change and I even tried to fantasize and look at porn and couldn't be aroused. I just knew it was me. Everything I saw was me, and I'm not craving myself because I already have it!

Edited April 15, 2020 by Maxu

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Maxu said:

Doesn't awareness of non-duality help relinquish at least some of the sexual cravings?

It can.

But don't expect it to be a magic pill.

Some people just have low sex drive. Hormones and age play a big role.

[electroBeam]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Like I said, sex is deeply wired in you. Good luck undoing that regardless of who you are.

It is possible, but I wouldn't bet on it. 

If you're not gonna bother unwiring yourself from sex then you're not really serious about this work.

Sex is not deeply wired in you. Sex is your ego interpreting sensations and attaching meaning on it. There's no such thing as hormones and the like.

Sex is ego. The intensity of your sex drive is relative to your ego structure. If you can't even bother yourself to adapt your ego to minimse sex drive, good luck getting enlightened. Minimising sex drive is kindergarten.

That goes for all cravings including food, family relations, money, etc. 

Nothing wrong with sex and having it, but sex adds karma to the Universal Mind whether you wanna hear it or not, and that karma needs to be undone for enlightenment. You cannot enlighten if you have cravings. All cravings must go... otherwise you're just bullshitting yourself and you aint enlightened. No where near close.

Edited April 16, 2020 by electroBeam

[Leo Gura]

@electroBeam Good luck with that.

[electroBeam]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@electroBeam Good luck with that.

you don't have a choice. It will eventually be done, if not this lifetime or the next.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

you don't have a choice. It will eventually be done, if not this lifetime or the next.

Don't hold your breath.

I'll bet all my money that you will be a horn dog in your next lifetime.

[Leo Gura]

@Meta-Man

If you can, do it and show us.

[LfcCharlie4]

@electroBeam You're equating all desire with Ego, which is wrong. Desire in means to achieve something e.g. happiness through money, sex, relationships etc, is a never-ending circle. 

However, desire can evolve to become an expression of your love, happiness, and understanding. 

Be careful demonizing desire, without it, you wouldn't be alive if you say you have transcended desire you're just BSing yourself. The desire to breathe and survive is still a desire, and there's also nothing wrong with expressing this understanding and having the desire to have a partner, have sex, build a business etc, when it is coming from the place you are already happy and at peace, therefore don't NEED anything, you simply do it as you WANT to. 

It's subtle but a huge difference. 

If you want to live a hermits life, that is completely up to you and is beautiful. However, it won't make you more 'spiritual' or whatever. 

Once all your 'karma' goes you will rest in eternity, so I wouldn't worry too much about that, enjoy life.

Sounds like you're going to fall into the trap of denying life, like many monks and yogis do (not all of course) 

'Minimizing your sex drive is very unnatural unless it happens naturally e.g. Ramana Maharshi, there are no rules to awakening.

When you are absolutely at peace and happy you are free to do whatever you wish. 

@Leo Gura For once I couldn't agree with you more  

 

[Leo Gura]

If you want to stop your sex drive, there's a real simple way. Get your balls removed.

We do it to cats and dogs every day. Works great.

[Parththakkar12]

1 hour ago, electroBeam said:

Sex is your ego interpreting sensations and attaching meaning on it.

Sex is ego. The intensity of your sex drive is relative to your ego structure.

That is precisely true. It is ego as is all survival. What you're missing though is that enlightenment won't make you 'ego-less' or 'self-less'. There are some parts of you that will be committed to the survival of your 3D human body all your life.

You have multiple egos, egos within egos within egos. All collective egos are part of you as this universe is a fractal universe. The death of one of those egos won't make your other egos die. The more you awaken though, the more aware your ego will get.

[Eren Eeager]

@Leo Gura so what you are saying is as long as you exist as this body and in this human world , you will act as a human. Limitations of being a human will be imposed on you. When u are conscious enough, all limitations will be transcended and this body will " die". Then you can be totally fearless, and pure. So we shouldn't push ourselves too much when we are not conscious enough ?

[diamondpenguin]

Sex is just apart of our bodies just like the arms. Getting rid of it is the same as cutting off a limb. It doesnt make sense how you can get rid of it if your alive as a human creature. Sex creates life. Sex is creativity.

[Leo Gura]

40 minutes ago, Meta-Man said:

If your idea of liberation involves being a suffocating slave to sexual cravings

Those are you words, not mine.

I will love myself even if I am a murderer. Because Love is the highest awakening.

37 minutes ago, Eren Eeager said:

@Leo Gura so what you are saying is as long as you exist as this body and in this human world , you will act as a human.

That's clearly what all the evidence and stories show.

Show me an enlightened master who doesn't act like a human.

Quote

When u are conscious enough, all limitations will be transcended and this body will " die". Then you can be totally fearless, and pure. So we shouldn't push ourselves too much when we are not conscious enough ?

From what I have experienced, there are fundamental limitations to being in this body which block you from the highest consciousness.

But that's not an excuse to be a slave to your cravings.

You can certainly transcend sex. I just bet you won't. And it's a bit silly to even desire that. I would much rather teach you how to have astounding metaphysical sex.

Your awakening isn't complete until you've had sex with yourself as God