the illusion of utopia equality or end of hierarchy

[The observer]

what i find interesting is the many ppl who tried through out history to solve the problems of poverty and hierarchical structures of society and what amuses me is that no one of them so far succeeded in that mission despite dying hard for it. here i will present a view for why its not possible to end this mess. warning this insight is derived from watching porn haha. so i was enjoying watching two ppl having sex on my screen and it hit me wht the hell is going on here? y r these ppl doing wht their doing? and then suddenly the dots connected them selves and it became clear to me how every thing work

all animals strive to survive naturally but humans in particular have created many sophisticated systems for how survival and well being are supposed to be achieved. porn industry is one of those systems and so is every other business career religion institution etc.. so every human being is under the illusion of his particular system and is striving to climb up to the top of his system b cuz that is the narrative that he gets fed with from birth and as long as hes staying where he is or moving up wards it feels good and it feeds back positively in to his motivation to climb up and demand more while people who are moving down wards feel bad about their selves and that feeds back in to their motivation so they go down even more and the hierarchy is all about competition and deception so the more competitive and deceptive u are the higher ur chances will get.

any way so ppl start from some where but they dont have enough power until they are at the top. all right so ur at the top enjoying all the pros spending money enjoying sex etc.. u will want to maintain that structure b cuz it serves ur ego haha and even if ur the most enlightenment master u will still not give up ur powers b cuz power corrupted u b cuz corruption is inevitable. and even if u want to be brave and noble the rest of the hierarchy some times even the poor will resist and fight u so u will end up murdering them or them murdering u.

and all of that is only the beginning now lets move on to y the illusion that moves ppl exists to begin with or in other words y ppl submit to the hierarchy in the first place. and here i think there r two components desire and programming. programming is basically the ideas u have and all the things u believe in and how u view ur self and the world around u. desire is a lack of fulfilment and once it is fulfilled the only thing that remains is the programming. one question that comes to mind is that can desire ever be completely fulfilled? i would say no. there can only be windows of fulfilment here and there and then a sense of lack will grow back again. but it can be diminished to the lowest levels ie necessary physiological desires for survival and security. now imagine that u and every other human being can have all ur desires fulfilled constantly and without lag u will still have the old programming and patterns that u cant get rid of immediately and unless uve done tons of work for decades it is not likely that u will be able to let go of ur patterns addictions etc.. so ur patterns will fight for maintaining the hierarchy. ppl low on the hierarchy will still enjoy moving up and ppl high will still enjoy putting others down so it wont make sense y to even try to get rid of the hierarchy b cuz it serves a certain psychological function that has to be worked through 

also imagine a world where no one has to do any thing but survive him self and only him self. assume that every one is peaceful and will leave u survive for ur self this will mean the end of life as u know it. no more hollywood no more money no more status no more porn no more government no more any thing. u will have to hunt or grow ur own food and build ur own house u will have to design ur own car etc u see where this is going. human beings will have to reduce their selves to animals to achieve the utopian society. other wise it will remain just an ideal dream.

conclusion its literally impossible to end poverty and transcend hierarchical structures so its more practical to do wht u can do to better ur life and be grateful for all the illusions of life

[VerballyHazardous]

Life will even out as living condition improves. Once the lower desires are fulfilled, higher one will need to be fulfilled too. The type of "utopia" you are describing is just a romantized version of purple. A true utopia is when people are fulfilled physically and spiritually, then they can express themselves with love and passion, that mean more science, more love, less animalistic behaviors.

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, The observer said:

what i find interesting is the many ppl who tried through out history to solve the problems of poverty and hierarchical structures of society and what amuses me is that no one of them so far succeeded in that mission despite dying hard for it.

If this was true, you'd be a slave right now living under a tyranical king. Or even more likely you'd be dead.

Equality comes in many, many degrees. 10,000 years of human history is nothing but a record of the successes of equality over inequality. See the big picture. Evolution moves towards greater unity and love.

[WHO IS]

Im geniunly happy for the future generations of humanity which will see the greater unity and love that humanity is capable. Too bad that we wont be there to see it for ourselves. 

[The observer]

1 hour ago, VerballyHazardous said:

Life will even out as living condition improves. Once the lower desires are fulfilled, higher one will need to be fulfilled too. The type of "utopia" you are describing is just a romantized version of purple. A true utopia is when people are fulfilled physically and spiritually, then they can express themselves with love and passion, that mean more science, more love, less animalistic behaviors.

what im proposing is that after questioning the hierarchy of needs it becomes clear that all needs do in fact stem from one and only one need which is the need to survive whatever that means. so in our current society survival means that u have to be creative for instance b cuz otherwise others will outdo u in this aspect and u will fail to make it for long but if there was no competition then the desire to be creative would go away b cuz it would become useless and the whole process would be pointless as ur already fulfilled cuz its easy to survive and no one is going to kill u. also what im saying is that desire stems from the lack of fulfillment of that essential need so the idea of love and passion that ur talking about gets replaced by self love which makes the society im describing perhaps even beige to be more precise. and from this pov the form of love ur talking about is exactly the obstacle to create the utopian society b cuz it creates an illusory cycle that allows for competition and this environment encourages and creates all sorts of desires which all in the end aim at surviving u the only difference is that without that cycle there will be no ego and therefore no identity to survive. imagine a society where every one is enlightened and does not fear death. one last thing is that fear stems from unfulfilled needs consider that the more desires u have the more insecure u r on the inside and the purpose of those desires is to make up for that insecurity by creating an illusion of control which makes u believe that u r safe and that ur survival is maintained.

[The observer]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

If this was true, you'd be a slave right now living under a tyranical king. Or even more likely you'd be dead.

Equality comes in many, many degrees. 10,000 years of human history is nothing but a record of the successes of equality over inequality. See the big picture. Evolution moves towards greater unity and love.

i hear u leo but i think the greater unity and love r not necessarily one certain way specially not so much sophisticated like they r today they could be very simple like im proposing but the problem is that in the bigger picture there can not be equality without inequality u see what i mean leo? b cuz right now we r not more equal than before simply b cuz of the diminishing of inequality but instead b cuz our equality is built on skewing some other equalities like the natural balance by pollution for instance and by invading other countries and destroying theyre equality u see what im saying? all of the rights that some of us enjoy today r on the expense of other beings lacking them and gods judgement or balance is coming back at us to bite us in the ass and perhaps this whole covid-19 thing is one example of balance.

Edited April 14, 2020 by The observer

[tenta]

The problem is that people defending hierarchy are more specifically:

- simply defending abusive bosses or abusive people who are higher up in a hierarchy in general

- denying how much hierarchies have put the most sadistic, unwise, tyrannical people at the top

- denying that the motivation within hierarchy is wanting control over another person's life or power (there are other motivations obviously)

- denying that what leads to climbing a hierarchy isn't a quality that they find desireable, like being conformist

4 hours ago, The observer said:

any way so ppl start from some where but they dont have enough power until they are at the top. all right so ur at the top enjoying all the pros spending money enjoying sex etc.. u will want to maintain that structure b cuz it serves ur ego haha and even if ur the most enlightenment master u will still not give up ur powers b cuz power corrupted u b cuz corruption is inevitable.

That would contradict being that enlightened

Also people being forced to submit to hierarchy is a big reason as well

The solution you're proposing isn't realistic nor would be progress, it would bring us back to an earlier time

But here is a solution: encourage more people to rebel against unjust hierarchies and question them instead of conforming to them, because those conforming are also crucial to keeping it going. Elect good leaders that will change things and make progress when it comes to reducing abuse of power.

[The observer]

1 hour ago, tenta said:

The problem is that people defending hierarchy are more specifically:

- simply defending abusive bosses or abusive people who are higher up in a hierarchy in general

- denying how much hierarchies have put the most sadistic, unwise, tyrannical people at the top

- denying that the motivation within hierarchy is wanting control over another person's life or power (there are other motivations obviously)

- denying that what leads to climbing a hierarchy isn't a quality that they find desireable, like being conformist

i agree all these points basically boil down to the essential two points ive mentioned earlier which r desire and programming and the solution imo is to question all structures to death but that of course takes decades of dedicated work but any way it seems like uve missed my point that even questioning all structures to death wont get us there b cuz delusion has gone way too far by now and its out of control. we actually dont want to question the hierarchy b cuz we both want it and need it so unless some thing breaks down that cycle like enormous suffering or fulfillment for instance we wont likely even desire to question it deeply enough in the first place. dont forget that even if we question it we will still be addicted to it so we will need time to detoxify too and dealing with addiction is extremely difficult on an individual level so imagine how much more difficult it would be on a massive collective level. so its not only that there r ppl who r defending the hierarchy but that i am and u r one of them unwillingly

1 hour ago, tenta said:

That would contradict being that enlightened

corruption runs very deep it affects every one no matter how developed or enlightened they r of course to various degrees. its all about maintaining a certain level of control over reality and thats not an easy thing to let go of even for the most enlightened partly thats b cuz thats how the hierarchy is designed when ur on top u have certain responsibilities that u have to maintain and by letting go of control u will suck at ur job and u will get replaced soon enough by the hierarchy it self so now u can see how tricky it is to tear down or even just try to manipulate a working system

2 hours ago, tenta said:

The solution you're proposing isn't realistic nor would be progress, it would bring us back to an earlier time

But here is a solution: encourage more people to rebel against unjust hierarchies and question them instead of conforming to them, because those conforming are also crucial to keeping it going. Elect good leaders that will change things and make progress when it comes to reducing abuse of power.

i didnt propose a solution b cuz i dont believe there is any i barely shared my conclusions after thinking about the subject for my self so this conclusion is exclusive to me

again it seems like uve missed my point its not that simple cuz theres deeper mechanisms at work here its not just about the abuse of power from the bigger picture. rebelling against the hierarchy will not simply bring a more just hierarchy but will instead merely make it more sophisticated and individualised version of it with each individual having to fulfill a certain role in that hierarchy and the more individualised and sophisticated a system is the further it gets from fulfilling the core desire of the human being which in turn makes the system harder to maintain b cuz it will tend to get corrupted easily by some thing like money which fulfills the core desire more easily and more effectively so thats where bribery and lobbying outdo morality and eventually the ppl with more money will be able to manipulate the system so u can see that its probably a dead end. this is not exclusive to money b cuz corruption works on many different levels including psychological which is the most tricky part of every hierarchy b cuz for example ppl with higher iq will manipulate ppl with lower iq both consciously and unconsciously b cuz we r easily deluded by what we cant perceive... and so on and so on 

[tenta]

33 minutes ago, The observer said:

i agree all these points basically boil down to the essential two points ive mentioned earlier which r desire and programming and the solution imo is to question all structures to death but that of course takes decades of dedicated work but any way it seems like uve missed my point that even questioning all structures to death wont get us there b cuz delusion has gone way too far by now and its out of control. we actually dont want to question the hierarchy b cuz we both want it and need it so unless some thing breaks down that cycle like enormous suffering or fulfillment for instance we wont likely even desire to question it deeply enough in the first place. dont forget that even if we question it we will still be addicted to it so we will need time to detoxify too and dealing with addiction is extremely difficult on an individual level so imagine how much more difficult it would be on a massive collective level. so its not only that there r ppl who r defending the hierarchy but that i am and u r one of them unwillingly

People do want to question it, because there's enough of a motivation to do that due to the points above and you can cling to hierarchy but if you look at evolution you'll see it's been heading towards more equality. I was not saying to get rid of hierarchy, but to get rid of some and keep but change some, which would get around the drawback of having to detox on a collective level and go with the more extreme solution you're proposing. Also you must have miss-typed because you said questioning structures to death, won't get us to question structures to death.

 

1 hour ago, The observer said:

again it seems like uve missed my point its not that simple cuz theres deeper mechanisms at work here its not just about the abuse of power from the bigger picture. rebelling against the hierarchy will not simply bring a more just hierarchy but will instead merely make it more sophisticated and individualised version of it with each individual having to fulfill a certain role in that hierarchy and the more individualised and sophisticated a system is the further it gets from fulfilling the core desire of the human being which in turn makes the system harder to maintain b cuz it will tend to get corrupted easily by some thing like money which fulfills the core desire more easily and more effectively so thats where bribery and lobbying outdo morality and eventually the ppl with more money will be able to manipulate the system so u can see that its probably a dead end. this is not exclusive to money b cuz corruption works on many different levels including psychological which is the most tricky part of every hierarchy b cuz for example ppl with higher iq will manipulate ppl with lower iq both consciously and unconsciously b cuz we r easily deluded by what we cant perceive... and so on and so on

You didn't elaborate on what you mean by a more individualized and sophisticated system (that leads to less fulfillment of desires like money, caused by rebelling against hierarchy) but unjust hierarchies are actually not advantaged, a more flexible and open minded system (in a company for example) can out compete one that is too greedy or hierarchical and so lead to more money than otherwise. There are natural hierarchies but what I'm talking about is man-made ones, which are irrationally putting lower IQ people at the top. 

[The observer]

3 hours ago, tenta said:

People do want to question it, because there's enough of a motivation to do that due to the points above and you can cling to hierarchy but if you look at evolution you'll see it's been heading towards more equality. I was not saying to get rid of hierarchy, but to get rid of some and keep but change some, which would get around the drawback of having to detox on a collective level and go with the more extreme solution you're proposing. Also you must have miss-typed because you said questioning structures to death, won't get us to question structures to death.

i would love to hear more about this equality cuz i dont really see it in action. i believe r now less than 1% of ppl control more than 99% of the money and resources like extreme alpha chimps so hows that more equal? literally 99% of people r hamsters stuck in wheels labouring for those 1% and even worse they fail to see it. how sad! things r not always explicit and obvious u have to have a keen eye and a clear perception to connect the dots. r now we r even more enslaved than the labour that built the pyramids. human beings will look at us thousands of years later they will think of how marvellous these things weve created so far r and be amazed at this simple yet cunning trick. a trick made by changing the outfit and stripping u from the inside without u even noticing and rather with ur own will and support. its already way inhumane but were used to it so it goes unnoticed. i assume u think uve questioned hierarchy to death? sounds like u could go further

3 hours ago, tenta said:

You didn't elaborate on what you mean by a more individualized and sophisticated system (that leads to less fulfillment of desires like money, caused by rebelling against hierarchy) but unjust hierarchies are actually not advantaged, a more flexible and open minded system (in a company for example) can out compete one that is too greedy or hierarchical and so lead to more money than otherwise. There are natural hierarchies but what I'm talking about is man-made ones, which are irrationally putting lower IQ people at the top. 

i think were running around in circles hear and what i said above should be enough 

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, The observer said:

and perhaps this whole covid-19 thing is one example of balance.

The entire fucking Universe is an example of sublime balance.

Surrender to it and realize that all is as it should be.

[The observer]

44 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The entire fucking Universe is an example of sublime balance.

Surrender to it and realize that all is as it should be.

but leo isnt desire part of what is and should be surrendered to? thats what im doing here any way. when i started this thread i had a desire to share my thoughts and as im typing r now i have a desire to reply to u. so ultimately i am fully surrendered to what is and i understand that this is how it should be but then what else should i do? desire still exists and its moving me and i dont have a desire to resist my original desire haha so i just let it take control. i should suppress my desire? is that what ur saying? b cuz other wise we agree and theres no resistance here just an expression of my self probably due to being unfulfilled and due to the current patterns of my psyche

[Leo Gura]

@The observer Do as you like. I'm just here to nudge you to a higher perspective, if you want.

[The observer]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@The observer Do as you like. I'm just here to nudge you to a higher perspective, if you want.

ok im sorry leo i dont want to sound rude but imho my perspective is higher and more comprehensive than the one ur suggesting and i really hope that im missing some thing but it doesnt seem like i am.. ur telling me to surrender to reality and i did only difference i guess is that u might have a different version of surrendering that does not include desire

[tenta]

10 hours ago, The observer said:

i would love to hear more about this equality cuz i dont really see it in action. i believe r now less than 1% of ppl control more than 99% of the money and resources like extreme alpha chimps so hows that more equal? literally 99% of people r hamsters stuck in wheels labouring for those 1% and even worse they fail to see it. how sad! things r not always explicit and obvious u have to have a keen eye and a clear perception to connect the dots. r now we r even more enslaved than the labour that built the pyramids. human beings will look at us thousands of years later they will think of how marvellous these things weve created so far r and be amazed at this simple yet cunning trick. a trick made by changing the outfit and stripping u from the inside without u even noticing and rather with ur own will and support. its already way inhumane but were used to it so it goes unnoticed. i assume u think uve questioned hierarchy to death? sounds like u could go further

i think were running around in circles hear and what i said above should be enough 

You have more options today and aren't someone's property, even tho there is obvious inequality.

It's not unreasonable at all to say that we could get more people to question hierarchies which are unjust and so the delusion hasn't gone too far, like you've claimed.

If you don't believe there are solutions then what about the solution I proposed above? You said rebelling against an unjust hierarchy won't lead to a more just one with less suffering, but that's just not true if we're evolving and questioning it.

[Leo Gura]

11 hours ago, The observer said:

i would love to hear more about this equality cuz i dont really see it in action. i believe r now less than 1% of ppl control more than 99% of the money and resources like extreme alpha chimps so hows that more equal?

In ancient Rome, 30-40% of the population were slaves.

When a neighboring city was conquered, all of its men would have their throats slit, all the women and children would be raped and sold as slaves. That's the true meaning of a war. Every citizen's life is on the line and they know it. If the wall is breached, everyone is fucked.

One of the biggest reasons men joined the army and went to war is that if they won, they got to rape all the women for free. For many this was their only chance for sex.

We've made some progress.

You live in so much luxury you have no idea what true inequality even means:

 

[Maxu]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

One of the biggest reasons men joined the army and went to war is that if they won, they got to rape all the women for free. For many this was their only chance for sex

So you mean war was mainly a reproduction strategy? Why don't other animals do this? Organize together to kill the males and take all the women? It seems like a human preponderance.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Maxu said:

So you mean war was mainly a reproduction strategy? Why don't other animals do this? Organize together to kill the males and take all the women? It seems like a human preponderance.

Have you not seen animals fighting each other to the death for mating rights?

Some male animals will even kill all the female's babies in order to get her ovulating again so they can impregnate her.

Male chimps have strict dominance hierarchies and it is not unusual for an alpha chimp to rip off a beta chimp's balls so he can't impregnate the females in the troupe.

Chimps are very socially savvy and will team up to out-dominate other chimps for power and sex. Male chimps are frequently beaten to death by gangs of other males.

Reproduction in the animal kingdom is no joke.

Quote

"1 in 200 men are direct descendants of Genghis Kahn."

https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/1-in-200-men-direct-descendants-of-genghis-khan

The Mongols had a long tradition of how to acquire a wife:

You see a woman you like. You kidnap her. You rape and impregnate her. And she becomes your wife. Then you repeat.

Don't try that today.

Survival and reproduction are so deeply linked that you shouldn't even think of them as two different things. Which is why you can't stop thinking about sex even after enlightenment. The deepest Zen master is still a horn dog at heart.

[Maxu]

@Leo Gura

How is it possible that even after being in a state of "no-mind" for so long you can still be pummelled with sexual thoughts? Shouldn't the mind be rewired after a long time of being in that state?

What about the "Brahmachari" that claim they are no longer interested in sex after doing various techniques? Are you saying that's bullshit?

Also what about females? You only speak of men being "horn dogs" but women are the sexual selectors so they determine men to act this way through selecting these types of men. You only seem to speak about the male role in sex as though it's the only one that's relevant and females have a low responsibility in contributing to these dynamics.

Do females still desire sex after prolonged enlightenment or does it manifest in a different way? We don't seem to have enough knowledge about enlightened females, or at least Leo doesn't.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Maxu

[The observer]

6 hours ago, tenta said:

You have more options today and aren't someone's property, even tho there is obvious inequality.

please dont make me repeat my self my point isnt about options. yes sure clearly we do have a good variety of options today but these options r in fact an illusion b cuz we dont actually need them for survival we only need food and water and may be sex. these individualized options r the result of the sophisticated systems weve created so far followed by questioning them but thats a never ending process and more options will keep coming as we keep questioning them probably to infinity. do u realise that we r merely expanding the gap between our desire (survival) and the effective ways to fulfill it? instead of simply growing or breeding or hunting for food we do extremely complex processes to fulfil our needs. how stupid is that? but thats not random. ppl r actively preserving this hierarchy out of ignorance and out of fear and weakness. thats the whole idea that im presenting but these r my limits i cant explain any further. i also even go further and claim that its nearly impossible to break that cycle no matter how u try and that every trial is in fact a step further from breaking it. of course these r just my thoughts r now and of course i could be wrong but thats how im convinced things work at the moment and every thing is possible 

Edited April 15, 2020 by The observer