Does the upper class benefit from socialized programs?

[ivory]

I had a rather painful conversation with my mother the other day. She is a very successful business person, is well off, and is also a Trump supporter. She gets angry at the idea of socialized programs, arguing that she "doesn't want to pay for other peoples' healthcare or education and she doesn't feel that she should be responsible for economic inequality in the U.S." I can understand where she's coming from, but I find her hypocritical. She has three kids. One of whom is really struggling financially, has a heroin addiction, and has no healthcare. The other child hasn't gone to college yet but will have to pay her own way should she choose to attend.

Obviously, if we had single payer healthcare my mom wouldn't have to pay for her's or the little one's healthcare. And if we had free education, the little one would easily be able to go to college someday. On an emotional level, my mom would benefit because her kids would benefit massively if, say, healthcare and education were free. Lastly, my mom would also benefit by not having to pay or provide health insurance for her employees.

My question is, if my mom didn't have any kids at all, and she weren't a business owner, would she (or other in her position) benefit from having more socialized programs in the U.S?

If you were to have a conversation with someone like my mother, how would you argue your position?

[Leo Gura]

All this misses the point. The real point is to get your mother to contemplate what it would be like if she reincarnated and lived life as every member of society. So in the next life she will not be a successful business person but a poor immigrant with bad genetics, bad childhood, and a chronic disease.

Your mother's business success is not merely a function of hard work. That success is built on a foundation which your mother is not in control of: genetics, place of birth, parents, good health, favorable economic system, etc. She takes all that for granted by assuming that all people in society are like her. Well, they aren't. Not even close. Imagine if her child had an incurable lifelong disease which forced her into bankrupcy and homelessness.

That's exactly right, she is denying responsibility for being a member of society. It's to say that others aren't working hard enough when work comes easily to you and you benefit in a thousand other ways. Her success is the result of society. It is not her own.

[Eren Eeager]

The point of a healthy society is not  just to   give money to those people with successful lives. The point is rather to support every member of society into living more healthy lifestyle, to be happy collectively. To support addicts , to support losers, to support people with health problems, to support criminals, tlo support homeless people. Focus on the word support, support means giving everyone what they need to develop therselves and that includes jobs, healthcare, habilitation programs, social and psychological support  and even money.What she is proposing is that she is better than everyone so she and people like her, those are the people only who deserve to live happily, they are the best and they are the best because they worked hard not because of luck, it is rather a naive point of view. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Eren Eeager

[Eren Eeager]

@ivory yesterday I watched the first episode of this series called 3 percent  on Netflix. It tells the story of a society selects only 3 percent  of society to live away from other people who are separated and live poorly. It exactly shows what society will look like if your mom point of view was taken to extreme levels.

[remember]

On 12.4.2020 at 6:02 AM, ivory said:

If you were to have a conversation with someone like my mother, how would you argue your position?

in the actual situation i would ask her about the systemic issues of the actual crisis in health system - how this weakens the health system and also threatens her health and not only that also her business and economy in general. if she can see how that weakens society maybe she would understand how it would support society if society would support themselves.

Edited April 13, 2020 by remember

[Vladz0r]

Everyone benefits from socialized programs that we pay into. Society as a whole is raised up, as the floor is heightened. People who will say otherwise tend to use metrics of comparative wealth and wealth inequality rather than looking at things like absolute poverty. If you're an upper middle class person in the US, or are making like $60-100k in a median cost of living area (cheaper than New York, more like Chicago) then really your quality of life is potentially what kings a hundred or two hundred years ago dreamed about, in terms of meeting your needs easily and efficiently. The idea is to get more people to that point as a sort of bare minimum, in my opinion.

People that think the socialized programs are a waste of money I think are only slightly valid, and that's because public institutions take a while to catch up to the private sector. You do wind up having systems like USPS and public transportation and public schools which are not monetarily incentivized to innovate, because their funding is guaranteed regardless of yearly deficits. There should be incentives for optimization so that these public systems can be robust. There's too much gridlock in these public systems for whatever reason, I feel. Open sourced technology and material may improve a lot of these things over time, though. with minimal effort on the individual system's end to implement it. (ex. think of an open source free curriculum or software and APIs that Google lets you integrate into your phone apps for easy GPS tracking for delivery drivers.)

Edited April 13, 2020 by Vladz0r

[RendHeaven]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

All this misses the point. The real point is to get your mother to contemplate what it would be like if she reincarnated and lived life as every member of society. So in the next life she will not be a successful business person but a poor immigrant with bad genetics, bad childhood, and a chronic disease.

Your mother's business success is not merely a function of hard work. That success is built on a foundation which your mother is not in control of: genetics, place of birth, parents, good health, favorable economic system, etc. She takes all that for granted by assuming that all people in society are like her. Well, they aren't. Not even close. Imagine if her child had an incurable lifelong disease which forced her into bankrupcy and homelessness.

That's exactly right, she is denying responsibility for being a member of society. It's to say that others aren't working hard enough when work comes easily to you and you benefit in a thousand other ways. Her success is the result of society. It is not her own.

You are correct, but the mother is very likely to fight the truth with everything she's got. If you told her upfront "hard work alone did not get you to where you are... you are taking your privileges for granted" I don't imagine that going so well.

Is there a way to coax her to that realization, perhaps with indirect words? Or is a harsh confrontation necessary? It's tough to tell.

[diamondpenguin]

People's minds are too closed nowadays. I was watching leo's videos on the big screen a few years back and my parents said what he talks about is bullshit. It gets on my nerves how everybody says they are right and know everything. It is really a big deception. 

[ivory]

1 hour ago, RendHeaven said:

You are correct, but the mother is very likely to fight the truth with everything she's got. If you told her upfront "hard work alone did not get you to where you are... you are taking your privileges for granted" I don't imagine that going so well.

Is there a way to coax her to that realization, perhaps with indirect words? Or is a harsh confrontation necessary? It's tough to tell.

I don't imagine that going well either. The purpose of this thread was to satisfy a curiosity and I didn't mean to make this about my mother. However, I will point out that I have no intention of changing her mind. I believe that she's too far gone. As she ages I believe that she will suffer greatly. I doubt that many will want to be there for her when things go south simply because she lacks compassion and has a superiority complex. I feel bad for her but there's nothing I can do.

[ivory]

1 hour ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

You shouldn't be arguing with these types of people, or arguing about politics in general, I guarantee you that you will never change someone's mind, and trying to do so is a pointless pursuit it. Instead, try furthering your own political knowledge, when doing this trying staying away from the internet as that's just propaganda, read books.

I'll take heart to the book suggestion I'm with you on that. There's only so far that youtube can take you. As for arguing, I don't really care about changing peoples' minds. What I do care about is clarifying my own views, educating myself, and presenting myself clearly.

[ivory]

6 hours ago, Eren Eeager said:

they are the best and they are the best because they worked hard not because of luck

I think it's rare to find someone who has truly become successful on their own. @Leo Gura made a good point for that. I do think that hard work is a factor but so is timing and support. I would not have been able to go to college (or maybe I would have, who knows) without financial assistance and cheap rent. I was lucky. In my mom's case, she didn't have to work a side gig while building her business. She was provided with free meals and housing by my father. And when they got divorced and remarried, her new husband paid off all her debt.

[Dumuzzi]

The Rich benefit from social programmes, because it means the poor don't just eat them and in fact in most advanced countries, with extensive social safety nets, they can even venture out on the streets. In third world countries with no "socialism" they generally need 24-hour armed guards and change drivers every month. Even so, it is surprisingly common to get little Jose's left ear in the mail along with a blackmail letter. Everybody benefits from a more equal and fair society, which is why the richest people on earth tend to buy property or holiday in places like Switzerland, New Zealand or Canada and not where inequality is the greatest.

[ivory]

 

4 hours ago, Dumuzzi said:

The Rich benefit from social programmes, because it means the poor don't just eat them and in fact in most advanced countries, with extensive social safety nets, they can even venture out on the streets. In third world countries with no "socialism" they generally need 24-hour armed guards and change drivers every month

I was curious to see what the correlation between political environment and looks like. This map shows some interesting data.

Edited April 14, 2020 by ivory

[Dumuzzi]

6 hours ago, ivory said:

 

I was curious to see what the correlation between political environment and looks like. This map shows some interesting data.

Yes, interesting, the US is way higher on that list than I expected it to be. Social inequality is probably the main driver behind that. BTW, you could watch Michael Moore's Sicko documentary on why "socialised" medicine actually benefits society as a whole and leads to much better outcomes overall:

 

[Giancarlo]

The upper class does benefit from social benefits, just indirectly. Example: How will their businesses survive if the majority of the population doesn't have disposable income? Where will those people find skilled workers if education is too expensive? 

But thinking in terms of indirect benefits or positive externalities is not very natural to most people.

[Leo Gura]

18 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

You are correct, but the mother is very likely to fight the truth with everything she's got. If you told her upfront "hard work alone did not get you to where you are... you are taking your privileges for granted" I don't imagine that going so well.

Is there a way to coax her to that realization, perhaps with indirect words? Or is a harsh confrontation necessary? It's tough to tell.

Of course she will resist it. It would be a huge blow to her ego.

That's why I said, "get her to contemplate". She has to want to think through this topic rather than acting out an ideology. This requires an open mind and genuine desire for a deeper understanding.

Since she's in stage Blue/Orange, what she needs is all the stuff required to advance to Green. See my SD videos for tips on how to advance from Orange to Green. It will take her about 5 years, assuming she is serious about growth. Which it sounds like she isn't, in which case, never.

Open her mind to the idea of growth.

[The Don]

On 4/12/2020 at 7:02 AM, ivory said:

If you were to have a conversation with someone like my mother, how would you argue your position?

Society doesn't have to offer people free stuff. The purpose of a society is to offer people infrastructure and equality of opportunity to better themselves.

When you offer people free stuff they get complacent and stop working to better themselves.

People don't yearn to be free, they yearn to be taken care of. That's not good! Realize that.

Nature doesn't offer you security. Nor stability. That's why you have to struggle for security and stability.

In my case, I was raised in a dysfunctional family. My dad was an alcoholic. A really bad one. I was beaten harshly every day. My mother was depressed and extremely cold with us, myself and my brother. I didn't have any kind of emotional support. I grew up poor, eating bread and potatoes most of the time. I was twice a repeater.

At 24 years old I became depressed and I knew that I have to work hard to get out of the misery I was in. I didn't blame anyone; neither society.

I understood that I have to take full responsibility for my own life. I remained grateful for how good things were and still are.

I still have my own problems but I do my best to fix them and become a better person every day.

In a country like the USA, most people have access to food stamps. If you live in the USA, you can think of yourself as lucky.

In my country (Romania) the minimum wage is $300. If you get a good job, you earn $500.

It's not society's fault if you are born into a dysfunctional family.

[remember]

5 minutes ago, The Don said:

It's not society's fault if you are born into a dysfunctional family.

argumenting like that would probably make her hold her breath for a second but it really depends on a person if that would make anyone reflect. most people would probably react rather hurt and it can lead to leashing out in both directions - its a soft trigger point, which would in the most cases end rather with a red reaction, if her son would tell that to her – from your perspective though if you would tell her that would probably be something different – even though i see a wisdom in that – although where does society start?

[The Don]

4 minutes ago, remember said:

although where does society start?

Society is built by people who have something to offer.

People like @Leo Gura have something to offer.

And of course, the nuclear family which is extremely important.

[remember]

@The Don to me society starts everywhere where two people meet - it starts with simple interactions. toxic or non toxic it does not start with people who have something to offer, it mostly starts with those who don’t.

but the definition for society i bet everyone has their own.