Why does god allow determinism?

[arlin]

3 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

As a pointer. . . notice how concerned you are about the plight of humans. Your concern seems very human-centric. For example, you write alot about the suffering of humans, yet nothing about the suffering of earthworms. Creating a god that cares more about humans than earthworms is a human-centric view. Yet most humans will resist transcending their attachment/identification to humanness, because it is a form of death. 

This is an absolutely fantastic insight that you have pointed out here, and i thank you for this.

I have to contemplate it further, but i think how can animals suffer even though they are not conscious of their life?

I don't think god is external, i think more on the terms of "the absolute" or "the universe" when i say god.

I don't think suffering is "bad" existencially. But in human terms, it hurts. You know what i mean? 

And most of poor people, or other's in general, don't know about that. About god and love, and it's not even their fault because there is no free will...

Why would god chose to incarnate in human form, maybe in some poor country, never make this person ever have access to this information, and live in misery? The whole life? 

There are people like that, there are lives like that. Im just saying it seems cruel. Even if i transcend that duality etc, that guy is still suffering. Just because i realize one day all this incredible truths this still does not change the fact that things like this are happening in the world and pretend to be fine with that.

And, if i don't have free will, as human i would feel worse knowing all those things because it is not me that discovered all of this, it was god and he is not doing the same thing with others in an equal way.

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, arlin said:

There are people like that, there are lives like that. Im just saying it seems cruel. Even if i transcend that duality etc, that guy is still suffering. Just because i realize one day all this incredible truths this still does not change the fact that things like this are happening in the world and pretend to be fine with that.

And, if i don't have free will, as human i would feel worse knowing all those things because it is not me that discovered all of this, it was god and he is not doing the same thing with others in an equal way.

The transcendence doesn’t necessarily mean you stop caring about the welfare of fellow humans. It doesn’t mean one needs to pretend they are fine with human suffering. Rather, the love expands.
 

For example, a person may care about the suffering of victims and dislike the abusers. The transcendence doesn’t mean one has to stop caring about and loving the victims. The transcendence can be an expansion in which there is caring and love for both victims and abusers. 

One of my good friends is a nurse who is now working overtime in a covid unit. She is immersed in human suffering and she herself is suffering. I feel for her and we skype several times a day. I try to be supportive and helpful. 

[Victor Mgazi]

2 hours ago, arlin said:

You don't get shit. You are here in you chair thinking about love, when people are suffering because of god's will.

You showed no seriousness in your response. Even though god is love does not justify you to say that these people deserve suffering and to be ok with that because it's god. I think you are avoiding something big.

Okay, I hear you completely. Perhaps somewhere we've misread each other's posts. I wasn't saying that other people deserve suffering and I'm definitely not okay with that. In fact one of my aspirations in life is to help make the world a better place, but let's leave that for a moment.

I'm not thinking about love, I'm simply aware of it. And for a person who's not aware of it life can literally be hell, nothing seems fair or seems to make sense, efforts tend to go in vain, the world becomes a lonely place and even the very idea of love seems utterly absurd. I know it may not look that way but just with the exception that you literally don't know me.. please trust me, I certainly get where you're coming from. And this starving Africa that you keep mentioning, although I often wonder whether or not it's only in Africa that starvation exists.. lol, that's where I'm from. So I have direct experience about what you're talking about, my life really hasn't been easy, I've come a very long way.

My responses were actually as genuine as they could be. Being aware of love God's love is really a big deal, but you don't have to take my word for it nor understand what I'm saying. All that I would to do is share this experience with you. Of course your problems won't go away, but I can promise you that when they do show up you'll be utterly fearless and you'll confront them with like a warrior not like a victim. And what I'm talking about here has nothing to do with enlightenment, at all. Only the awakening to God's love.

2 hours ago, arlin said:

Again. It is not you that discovered that. It's god that decided so. Stop attributing to yourself what you have discovered. You have no say about that, and no control over it. To say that you recognized it is really very fucking selfish.  Meanwhile you should ask yourself why god chose that for you and why it chose misery and suffering for others.

I do confess, everything that I have ever accomplished has in deed been God's will, and everything that I am is God's will. Why God allows misery and suffering is truly a mystery until one is enlightened. But what I do know is that God wouldn't be God if he didn't. I'm not trying to justify anything by the way, I'm simply telling you what I know.

[arlin]

@Serotoninluv Ok, if i will be able to transcend that, i was predestined to be so by god.

So now why does god decide to predestine some people to never be able to transcend, or to ever know about him, or to live a life full of suffering? Why does god allow that?

[arlin]

@Victor Mgazi Yea we have certainly misunderstood each other at some point. 

4 minutes ago, Victor Mgazi said:

I'm simply aware of it. And for a person who's not aware of it life can literally be hell

 I agree with that.

 

5 minutes ago, Victor Mgazi said:

please trust me

I do trust you! ahaha. I agree that to be aware of universal love is a really big deal... and it can transform your life for good, this without a doubt. I didn't know where you live, so i actually am a little stupid about keep mentioning it...

I thank you for sharing your story, and no, i am not in a bad situation right now, i think the worst i have already passed, but my question was just geniouine question.

11 minutes ago, Victor Mgazi said:

I do confess, everything that I have ever accomplished has in deed been God's will, and everything that I am is God's will. Why God allows misery and suffering is truly a mystery until one is enlightened. But what I do know is that God wouldn't be God if he didn't. I'm not trying to justify anything by the way, I'm simply telling you what I know.

This is real. I thank you for being so honest. And perhaps the question of suffering will remain a mistery to me too.

"God wouldn't be god if he didn't" makes somewhat sense... But i still don't get, if he is capable of infinity and everything, wouldn't he be able to make everyone realize enlightenment?  Or to have free will to change things? 

I don't know, lot's of questions remain.

[Nahm]

@arlin

Hypothetically, what if someone was creating suffering via overthinking, and was told that with a clean diet and daily meditation, they could transcend all suffering and realize they are God, thus making sense of all of reality...but they chose not to, and chose  to continue thinking in circles, trying to ‘figure it out’ instead...what would you suggest to them? Or would you not suggest anything perhaps? 

[Javfly33]

13 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@arlin

Hypothetically, what if someone was creating suffering via overthinking, and was told that with a clean diet and daily meditation, they could transcend all suffering and realize they are God, thus making sense of all of reality...but they chose not to, and chose  to continue thinking in circles, trying to ‘figure it out’ instead...what would you suggest to them? Or would you not suggest anything perhaps? 

I would suggest the Zen stick 

[Forestluv]

5 hours ago, arlin said:

@Serotoninluv  If I will be able to transcend that, (then) i was predestined to be so by god.

So now why does god decide to predestine some people to never be able to transcend, or to ever know about him, or to live a life full of suffering? Why does god allow that?

There are assumptions in the construct that you have created. Imo, it would be more insightful to inquire about the assumptions themselves and then to go prior to the assumptions.

[arlin]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

@arlin

Hypothetically, what if someone was creating suffering via overthinking, and was told that with a clean diet and daily meditation, they could transcend all suffering and realize they are God, thus making sense of all of reality...but they chose not to, and chose  to continue thinking in circles, trying to ‘figure it out’ instead...what would you suggest to them? Or would you not suggest anything perhaps? 

I would keep suggesting the same thing, i would do my best, all i can. But i will watch them make the same choices and this would make me feel bad, especially knowing that their decisions are god's will... 

 

30 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

There are assumptions in the construct that you have created. Imo, it would be more insightful to inquire about the assumptions themselves and then to go prior to the assumptions.

Yeah the assumption is that everything is god's will and we have no free will in human form  

This is particularly true for me since i saw that in first person. Probably it's called depersonalization. I became aware that i have no free will. There is no self and the past is an illusion of the mind which happends in the present.

It was a terrible experience, but i know i am not that spiritually developed and i miss so many insights probably,

That experience is gone now. It was like taking a dissociating pshychedelic substance.

I feel better but this question about free will has remained...

[Nahm]

@arlin If they can’t choose, because it’s “God’s will”...why would you feel bad?

[Forestluv]

@arlin I had a similar experience. It was very unsettling for a while. The mind tries to re-establish grounding.  Yet, the underlying issue was anxiety and fear of losing control and uncertainty of what might happen. . . . At the time, one thing that helped me was that if there was no me with free will, it’s been like that my whole life and I did ok. It’s not like I lost something. One cannot lose what they never had.

[arlin]

11 hours ago, Nahm said:

If they can’t choose, because it’s “God’s will”...why would you feel bad?

I would feel bad because it's god's will. Because god gave me the opportunity to learn about love and the  universe, and did not gave them the same opportunity.

9 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

I had a similar experience. It was very unsettling for a while. The mind tries to re-establish grounding.  Yet, the underlying issue was anxiety and fear of losing control and uncertainty of what might happen. . . . At the time, one thing that helped me was that if there was no me with free will, it’s been like that my whole life and I did ok. It’s not like I lost something. One cannot lose what they never had.

Thank you for sharing.

[Nahm]

4 hours ago, arlin said:

I would feel bad because it's god's will. Because god gave me the opportunity to learn about love and the  universe, and did not gave them the same opportunity.

Feeling bad make sense for ya? 

[arlin]

14 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Feeling bad make sense for ya?

I do feel bad, but even if i didn't and recognized it is still god's will and love, that being is still suffering and he has no free will to choose something else. Why does god choose that for him?

[Nahm]

@arlin

He’s God. Nothing less will settle. Put feeling first, and the insights of the universe will begin to reveal themselves to you. 

[arlin]

2 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@arlin

He’s God. Nothing less will settle. Put feeling first, and the insights of the universe will begin to reveal themselves to you. 

Beautifull words.

I don't know yet. I will work on that.

For now, whatever the grandiose scope is, to me seems just cruel.

Yet people will tell me cruel it's just my ego, it's dualistic concept, bla bla bla.

Edited April 3, 2020 by arlin

[Victor Mgazi]

@arlin what if I told you that God never chose anything, what would you then think?

 

[arlin]

2 minutes ago, Victor Mgazi said:

@arlin what if I told you that God never chose anything, what would you then think?

 

uhm... isn't this a contradiction to what everybody says here?  

[Nahm]

40 minutes ago, arlin said:

Beautifull words.

I don't know yet. I will work on that.

For now, whatever the grandiose scope is, to me seems just cruel.

Yet people will tell me cruel it's just my ego, it's dualistic concept, bla bla bla.

Thank you. An offering of a perspective...   That there is pretty much what’s referred to as ‘the joke’. There is no grandiose scope. That’s the punchline. Thinking there is - is -what “the ego is”. This is why “the ego” has never once, nor will ever once, actually be found. There’s no grandiose anything. So if suffering is present, if it’s known, you’re creating it, in precisely that way. 

If you get what I’m layin down here...look to transcend paradox, and see they cancel each other out. If reality is determined, The ‘first cause’ would have to be spontaneous. If reality is spontaneous, that in and of itself, would be being determined, by you. The yellow brick road of thought, only leads home to the wizard. So fuck all that, and feel this love. Time is short. And there isn’t any.  Eat from the tree of your life. 

[Victor Mgazi]

4 minutes ago, arlin said:

uhm... isn't this a contradiction to what everybody says here?  

Maybe.. but what if that's the truth. What if I told you what God's will is, and what if I told you it's to love.. What would you make of that?