Why does god allow determinism?

[arlin]

So, i've had an experience of depersonalization quite a while ago, when i clearly saw every single reaction was not coming from "me". I died inside, i had no fucking identity as i completely saw my past as an illusion of my mind. I was living in a present of hell. No free will.

My question regards to no free will and the complications that go along with that. 

Leo said that the ego does not have free will but "you" god does. (I haven't experienced god, im not aware that i am it so, for me it could be just a fairy tail until i try it for myself) 

I am asking myself, even in relation to my journey, since i saw that the results i got it's not me that did it, it was kinda done for me. This is freaking me out,since i built a story in my head around that and now collapses.

I have serious questions that i want you to consider and please avoid simplistic answers... Mainly for leo (If you are reading this), but of course everybody is appreciated.

 

- Do you realize everything you have done so far it's god that walked you through the path? Does this make you feel blessed?

- What if your life slowly starts to become miserable? How would you feel about that knowing it's destined to be so for you? What would you think about god now?

- What about other people (People in misery, starving, or mentali ill, etc..) who don't know about god, why did god choose to be so, and lead them through a miserable life?

- If you tell those people god is love, are they going to spit in your face?

- What if you tell those people they don't even have control over what is happening, so if they can't get out of debt for example, it's god's will. If you are starving to death in africa, it's god's will.  And they cannot do anything about it.

 

My debate is that i just don't see how the love of god fits in this. If god loves you, why the fuck would he (or it) choose to have a horrific life for you knowing that you will be alone down here and you will never,ever have the power to change things.

I don't have a horrible life. Im not depressed or anything. but i fear for the future because i fear that even though god might have blessed me until now, making me so open minded and exposing me to those king of informations which are going to change my life, it also can turn around and if i find myself in a life of misery i would know i can't do anything about it.

(of course "i" would try to do something about it, but it's not working, every atempt is predestined, etc. etc. etc.)

Hope you understood, thanks.

Edited April 1, 2020 by arlin

[Osaid]

Life itself is not miserable, your ego makes it seem that way. Suffering is not existential, it is created by your ego.

If you were able to see reality as it is (without the ego), you would see that love is all there is. Pure, unconditional love.

Your view of love is egoic and selfish. You hate things like disease because it can cause harm in your body. You struggle to love it because of this.

God's view of love is more accurate. It is unconditional. God love's all aspects of itself, including mental illness and hunger. God realizes that these things are needed in order for the universe to function. God does not hate these things because it is selfless. If the universe did not include these things, God could not be itself, and reality would not work.

Reality would fall apart without the feature of suffering. You do not realize the radical implications that would be if suffering did not exist. 

Instead of wishing for reality to be some other way, you should learn to appreciate how it already is, because that is exactly how it should and must be for everything to work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[arlin]

@Osaid Horrible answer. you use your bullshit philosophy to avoid answering my questions. And to avoid feeling the pain in your life.

If you had a car accident today and became paralyzed for the rest of your life what would you think about the way you answered me?

What if you caught a degenerative illness which makes your skin look like shit.

Oh but you believe in god, and suffering it's just bullshit ego stuff.

Ah i can see how this is working out for you now.

A child in africa who is starving does not even know about god and is predestined to suffer and you are saying that this is right?? Like, if you were starving to death and knew you don't have free will and you were predestined to live that way, what would you think about your philosofical little cute concepts?

You are a copy of leo, you idolize him and answer like him to feel competent.

If your answers are identical to his at least let him answer.

Edited April 1, 2020 by arlin

[Consilience]

Go further with your contemplation. Determinism vs. free will is a duality you’ll eventually transcend. The mind fuck is that it is deterministic, free, both, and neither depending on how you’re experiencing reality, absolute truth transcends this. You cannot see this using logic and reason, you must become conscious of this fact. And the fact of the matter is that free will is yours for the taking, but maybe to find true free will you gotta surrender completely  

Edited April 1, 2020 by Consilience

[Nahm]

@arlin

If a condition, that is, a thought which arises, does not resound in your being, does not resonate with feeling, ...you can let the condition, the thought, go. This is the unconditional selfless grace of Godness. This is your true power as creation, you can let go. Counterintuitive, perhaps for now, but truth is being discovered nonetheless. Let it be easy, in willingness to let thoughts in discord with feeling, go. In choosing a thought which does resound, you create, you fill the body with Good, with love, with self-love. Do so, and what is known, is that God is as unquestionable as will - and in doing so, fear has no presence, no home, and it simply is not. I love you, you are deeply loved, unconditionally, precisely as you are, however you are, simply because you are. 

Everyone goes through this similarly. Hardly anybody inspects it though. Hence widespread anxiety, depression, big pharma, ego, etc. Madness.

It is ultimately due to forgetting who we are when we’re born. We experience and try to ‘make it’, and weave an idea of who we are for necessary confidence, esteem, etc. All themselves, creation of love.  A point comes in life, because we’re actually unconditional, the idea of who we are begins to be seen as, conditions, which do not resonate in truth. This is suffering. (“Conditioning”). Throw your conditions, your beliefs & ideas of you, into the ocean of unconditional love. That is your power, to do so, if you choose so. 

The reversal of this is basically what the path is. We learned in the past, to adjust our feeling, to who we thought we were, but it did not feel Good to do so. We then reverse this, and put feeling first, and we realize it is love & guidance, the ‘true self’, ‘source’, and was all along. Love & guidance was always within you, and that is why conditions, limiting beliefs, never felt, Good. 

There were times, in our innocence of not knowing our true nature, that we listened to thought instead of feeling, and we named the discord felt, “fear”. We created the belief, “fear”. There never was such a thing, the feeling of discord was believing a thought (usually about ourselves & our future) which did not feel good. We kept the thought, and labeled the feeling, “fear”...

But it’s love. Innocent, unconditional being. It is not seen, unless you see it. It is not heard, unless you hear it. It is always felt. It is you.  In love, understanding of all things arises. Love is inseparable of, identical to, understanding.

[Osaid]

@arlin I never said I was immune to suffering. I am nowhere near developed enough to achieve such a thing. That doesn't discredit anything I said earlier. This isn't about me or my capacity for love, it's about existential truth.

Notice how you only seem to love things that please your ego or help you survive. How could this possibly be the highest form of love?

Raise your capacity for love so that you can appreciate the love that is around you.

Holocaust survivor Viktor Frankl put it best when he said:

"When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves."

 

 

 

[Victor Mgazi]

23 hours ago, arlin said:

 

- Do you realize everything you have done so far it's god that walked you through the path? Does this make you feel blessed?

I only realize that everything happens out of love. Which makes me feel loved.

23 hours ago, arlin said:

What if your life slowly starts to become miserable? How would you feel about that knowing it's destined to be so for you? What would you think about god now?

My life had been miserable once, it was only when I recognized God's love that everything it became good. God's love is brutal but also too damn selfless.

23 hours ago, arlin said:

What about other people (People in misery, starving, or mentali ill, etc..) who don't know about god, why did god choose to be so, and lead them through a miserable life?

Those people are God, they're starving or mentally ill because God is being God. Why did God choose to be so? Because God is love. 

23 hours ago, arlin said:

If you tell those people god is love, are they going to spit in your face?

Probably so, yes. And those people would be God showing you brutal love.

23 hours ago, arlin said:

What if you tell those people they don't even have control over what is happening, so if they can't get out of debt for example, it's god's will. If you are starving to death in africa, it's god's will.  And they cannot do anything about it.

And if that's the case then that's the case. 

 

@arlin I honestly do get where you're coming from, I was there once myself. It's okay trying to understand why God is love, it's good keep questioning for as long as you want. But when you decide that you're now getting tired of questioning God, consider questioning yourself just as much as you've been questioning God. Instead of looking outwards look inwards.

[arlin]

2 hours ago, Victor Mgazi said:

I honestly do get where you're coming from,

You don't get shit. You are here in you chair thinking about love, when people are suffering because of god's will.

You showed no seriousness in your response. Even though god is love does not justify you to say that these people deserve suffering and to be ok with that because it's god. I think you are avoiding something big.

2 hours ago, Victor Mgazi said:

it was only when I recognized God's love that everything it became good

Again. It is not you that discovered that. It's god that decided so. Stop attributing to yourself what you have discovered. You have no say about that, and no control over it. To say that you recognized it is really very fucking selfish.  Meanwhile you should ask yourself why god chose that for you and why it chose misery and suffering for others.

Edited April 2, 2020 by arlin

[arlin]

12 hours ago, Osaid said:

Notice how you only seem to love things that please your ego or help you survive.

I doesn't help me survive to think about why the fuck god decided that somebody would suffer. it's a legitimate question which should be taken seriously by you yourself if you really want to understand things.

12 hours ago, Osaid said:

Raise your capacity for love so that you can appreciate the love that is around you.

You are being more closed then me. You should be geniounly concerned about why other people are not in your position to contemplate things like god and love, instead they are destined by god himself to a life of suffering.

You are here believing you are blessed when the whole time you had no say about your life, god decided it for your life, while people struggle just to breathe.

i hope you realize that the only way for you to be in the position to know about god and love, it's because god chose that for you. If he hadn't you would not be here today. And you are taking ownership of that like this is something you decided to because you worked on yourelf. And then lay down, bury your head in the sand  and "enjoy the love".

So actually your view of love is more egoic and selfish.

 

If everybody is you, this is a reason for you to be concerned about this topic.

Edited April 2, 2020 by arlin

[Nahm]

@arlin https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/some-assembly-required/201401/pain-is-inevitable-suffering-is-optional

Be careful with your words & attitude. This forum is not your dumping ground.

[WHO IS]

The pain... the pain is real though.

[arlin]

4 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@arlin https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/some-assembly-required/201401/pain-is-inevitable-suffering-is-optional

Be careful with your words & attitude. This forum is not your dumping ground.

1: Do you believe we have no free will or not?

2: You should say that to the other user(s) as well, when they said that i am egoic and selfish for what i believe.

Be carefull how you respond to me, im not your dumping ground.

[Nahm]

18 minutes ago, arlin said:

1: Do you believe we have no free will or not?

2: You should say that to the other user(s) as well, when they said that i am egoic and selfish for what i believe.

Be carefull how you respond to me, im not your dumping ground.

Contemplate what a belief is. 

 

[arlin]

23 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Contemplate what a belief is. 

If you have done that, and other people have done that, don't feel justified to call me egoic and sellfish.

If you really wish to give a good example of love, from your "Higher point of view" you should have compassion.

Instead you view people who disagree with you or who challenge what you believe as something to be adjusted or fixed. Be carefull about assuming you are radical open minded, and what you believe is the ultimate truth.

Even if it is, you still have to demonstrate compassion and curiosity, instead of refusing everybody point's of view.

 

Edited April 2, 2020 by arlin

[Consilience]

Legitimately was hoping you'd respond to my point ? I love this topic and was stick in the determinism pov for awhile. I wish you luck dude. 

[Nahm]

@arlin

This might be helpful for you. https://youtu.be/SLSsqCI7NIE

 

[arlin]

1 minute ago, Consilience said:

Legitimately was hoping you'd respond to my point ? I love this topic and was stick in the determinism pov for awhile. I wish you luck dude. 

Oh yes yes, i think this topic is very interesting too! I am just thinking how to formulate my response ahaha, it's coming soon

[arlin]

3 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@arlin

This might be helpful for you. https://youtu.be/SLSsqCI7NIE

 

I will take a look on that. 

[arlin]

On 1/4/2020 at 3:31 PM, Consilience said:

Go further with your contemplation. Determinism vs. free will is a duality you’ll eventually transcend. The mind fuck is that it is deterministic, free, both, and neither depending on how you’re experiencing reality, absolute truth transcends this. You cannot see this using logic and reason, you must become conscious of this fact. And the fact of the matter is that free will is yours for the taking, but maybe to find true free will you gotta surrender completely  

I think i might agree with you here. I completely agree of the fact that i can't use logic to know this. I have only had the experience of seeing every my reaction is automatic and i don't exist inside. Not that this is a bad thing, or wrong...

Have you become conscious of this fact in your direct experience and if so, how have you done that?

And this still does not explain why does god choose a life of misery for other people...

I might be free as god (I have no direct experience of this, just speculating), but still, my human life is predetermined.

Or is it that i am  free and predetermined at the same time?

 A lot of confusion here for me, as you can see. But mainly, i am really concerned about why does god choose to come into human and experience a life of suffering, if he knows this being has no free will to do something to change his situation. This only seems cruel to me... i mean, from my limited human perspective, yes, but there is still value on that. it's not that everything is god so, that's it. I am also a human.

[Forestluv]

@arlin The question of evil and suffering is the classic dilemma of an external god. If this external god is all powerful, how could it allow evil and suffering? Many religious folk claim that an external god allows humans free will to choose weather to act in evil ways. Yet this still doesn’t explain the presence of suffering. If this external god is all-powerful and loving, how can it allow suffering?

If you stay immersed within the constructs of an external hod and universal good vs bad, you will be a n a cyclic trap. There is another way, which is to transcend the human constructs that one is attached to and identified with. Yet most people are unwilling to do this because it entails letting go of things held dearly as a person and human. 

As a pointer. . . notice how concerned you are about the plight of humans. Your concern seems very human-centric. For example, you write alot about the suffering of humans, yet nothing about the suffering of earthworms. Creating a god that cares more about humans than earthworms is a human-centric view. 

Regarding the question “why would god choose to live a life of suffering”? - this is at the personal/human level. Humans don’t want to suffer, so it doesn’t make sense that a “higher” being would choose a life of human suffering. How many humans would choose a life of suffering? Not many. From a human perspective, it doesn’t make sense. Within the mindspace a person/human it won’t make rational sense. It hasn’t made rational sense for thousands of years and it doesn’t now. 

As a metaphor. . . From a child’s perspective, there are a lot of things adults do that doesn’t make sense. From the child’s view it is nonsensical and they won’t figure it out using a child’s level of awareness and thinking. They would need to transcend that level as they grow into an adult. 

And I’m not disagreeing with you. From a relative human perspective, suffering is awful.