What do you think about UBI (Universal Basic Income)?

[brugluiz]

Many people defending UBI during this crisis. I think it's a bad idea because this benefit will come with strings attached from the government. Considering current collective consciousness, UBI is not a good idea, since we're giving our freedom to the government, most people don't know their actual needs and there's some risk UBI may become the new zero.

Not that UBI is a bad idea, but maybe not viable in current society in an national or international level.

[DivineSoda]

UBI is at best a sort of patching up of very serious, systemic issues. Our solutions (and imagination) are too shallow. At some point, we must grow up and face the root causes. They are obvious and plenty.

People here might argue that the population is not ready for such conscious action/leadership. I would say if it's done right, we can at least move things along much faster than these baby steps. Anything less than this is a distraction from what's truly needed. These measures are all too little, too late. We need to start thinking/dreaming bigger. 

[LittleMaslow]

I'm 100% all-for UBI. We are entering a time when AI will cause massive job loss in certain industries and we have to solve this problem or else we're going to end up getting more populist rage, shrinking of the middle class and suffering of the poor. That is to say, we're going to continue to drag out our current political problems and inequality. It's bad for our society and our economy to underutilize the human potential of our citizens by keeping them trapped in wage slavery and worn out from anxiety over money. And considering how ridiculously expensive it's getting to live in a U.S. city with any semblance of career opportunities, I'm all for the government helping pay my rent... especially when you consider that Wall Street and real estate developers have been fucking the American people out of affordable housing since 2008 while simultaneously adding no value to anyone's lives. Free money? A little bit less economic stress in my life? Count me in.

[brugluiz]

Do you guys really think UBI, in the current society, would come with any cost or exchange?

[supremeyingyang]

@brugluiz

On the one Hand is UBI a great Idea, but on the other hand problematic.

Great: Everyone has Food, Shelter and a lttile more materialistic luxus. You can't get blackmailed with your job.

Problematic: Inflation of prices over time, thus UBI is the new 0. For some people it'll be better to live on UBI than to work and pursue higher Ideals. Someone has to earn it. You have to have strict Immigration Laws or anyone comes in your country. Education, Ruthlessness, Mastery and Heritagw will be the new devider (it is already, but we meausure with money)

[Roy]

UBI is an inevitability and is a by-product of humanity advancing and becoming a more interconnected and compassionate species.

People can argue the economics, math, morals, and semantics of it's effects in the current all they want.

100 years from now though people will look back and scorn us for being so selfish, backwards for not having it as a commonly accepted system.

[Bodigger]

We have witness to this on many reservations where some receive as much as 70k annually and it does not work well collectively.

[silene]

I'm in favour of UBI overall but I expect it to have pros and cons. By universal do you mean global or national? if it's just national then it may create more migration issues as people try to move to countries with higher UBI, so some type of global income to level the playing field?  On the issue of AI, I'm in favour of introducing income tax for AI robots if they are doing jobs which could be done by humans, which could help fund the UBI scheme, and protect jobs. Although I might be accused of stifling innovation   

[Chives99]

I think people should receive benefits but in the form of food stamps and housing/ other living costs other than just being handed money that could be squandered 

[fi1ghtclub]

Nice step, should be done.

UBI and healthcare should be the two pillars of a democracy.

[ls28harry]

I don't believe it is a good idea as it will have to be earnt by the conformity of certain rules. It could turn into a dictatorship or take away free speech, which has been happening one drip at a time over the last few decades.

[Carlos Cardenas]

An alternative to UBI would be free healthy food (fruits, grains, etc), free basic clothes, free transportation and free accommodation for everyone. You should give back some work you're good at, not a 9-5 job but maybe work 2 days a week or something like that.

[brugluiz]

On 04/04/2020 at 5:21 PM, ls28harry said:

I don't believe it is a good idea as it will have to be earnt by the conformity of certain rules. It could turn into a dictatorship or take away free speech, which has been happening one drip at a time over the last few decades.

Agree. People who can notice dynamics such as NARCISSIST x CODEPENDENT are very aware of the dangers of UBI.

[Parththakkar12]

I don't think we're ready for UBI yet. The way our collective egos survive, the powerful people of the world will just somehow use it as yet another tool to exploit those with lesser power. Collectively it's a low consciousness society with low consciousness leaders. The real way to go about this would be for people to do really well in the capitalist economy, so much so that the amount of money everyone has would be next to infinite (in an idealization). Thus everyone can get whatever they want and we aren't killing each other for power. This will require thousands of years of raising of collective consciousness and for every individual to take responsibility for the collective (which conscious business/life purpose is all about in today's date).

[ivory]

On 3/30/2020 at 0:48 PM, brugluiz said:

I think it's a bad idea because this benefit will come with strings attached from the government

Then it's not UBI. There seems to be some disagreement about what exactly constitutes UBI, but I think that most agree that UBI means no strings attached.

 

On 3/30/2020 at 1:53 PM, DivineSoda said:

UBI is at best a sort of patching up of very serious, systemic issues

I can't say that I disagree but the thing to consider is that no solution is permanent. Shit happens, you deal with it, then you move onto the next problem. Wash rinse repeat. I believe there are times where UBI, or some semblance of it, may be the appropriate solution. Look at the US coronavirus relief package. We came up with a solution to deal with the problem at hand and in my opinion, it is the appropriate solution. Will it last forever, probably not. Will we come back to it at a later date? Perhaps.

 

On 3/30/2020 at 1:53 PM, DivineSoda said:

People here might argue that the population is not ready for such conscious action/leadership. I would say if it's done right, we can at least move things along much faster than these baby steps. Anything less than this is a distraction from what's truly needed. These measures are all too little, too late. We need to start thinking/dreaming bigger.

I don't think there's anything wrong with think big / dream big (Bernie Sanders, Green New Deal, etc), but most of the time, change happens very slowly. And that's true on every front. That's just the way life works. There are times, like in a crisis, where life changes drastically and there is just no going back. But that's something all together different.

[ivory]

On 4/2/2020 at 10:10 PM, supremeyingyang said:

Problematic: Inflation of prices over time, thus UBI is the new 0. For some people it'll be better to live on UBI than to work and pursue higher Ideals. Someone has to earn it. You have to have strict Immigration Laws or anyone comes in your country. Education, Ruthlessness, Mastery and Heritagw will be the new devider (it is already, but we meausure with money)

I'd be curious to learn which studies you are looking at. But in Alaska (which is has semblance to UBI), the data shows that there was very little change in the amount that people worked. There will always be freeloaders, but I think a good number of people would put the money to good use. Like education, hobbies, health, etc.

[ivory]

On 4/3/2020 at 3:00 AM, Roy said:

People can argue the economics, math, morals, and semantics of it's effects in the current all they want.

I've enjoyed your posts here Roy and I'm not here to argue. But how would be pay for something like UBI. My understanding is that UBI is ridiculously expensive. Even at $1000 per month, the cost in the US alone would be $39,600,000,000 per year (assuming every member of the 300,000,000 population gets a payout). Obviously, we'd have to make some cuts and shift funds around. But how do we decide what we can do without? And, what are the other implications. I think that defense spending would have to be drastically cut. In the US the defense budget is $748 billion. Our "defense" strategy would have to change dramatically. We're talking about changes on a global level.

[Roy]

2 hours ago, ivory said:

We're talking about changes on a global level.

@ivory Precisely! That's exactly what we're talking about. It's just like Terence Mckenna said, we have the resources, the power, the technological knowledge, and the community to build a utopia. But we are led by the least among us, more accurately our least inspiring ambitions and motivations. The change that is necessary for these things to come to fruition isn't a fantasy, it is an actionable path in reality for people to wake up tomorrow with a new perspective and healthier set of values and radically change the world for the better. But we are all mostly trapped in our own cages of illusion, willingly or unwillingly, where the bars are made up of selfishness, greed, fear, survival needs, want for power, etc.

"How am I going to retire without excess money?!" (Everyone wants to shelter away the old til they rot to death in expensive hotels, a cheaper healthier solution is in a community/family oriented solution, with volunteers).

"We can't just be giving money to bums and drug addicts!" (But when they are the ones struggling they demand handouts).

"It's too expensive!" (The resources already exist for a good quality living for everyone, it's just dispersed unequally).

"We can't lower our defense budget! The world will become unsafe!" (Terrorists exist exactly for the reason of intrusive wars destabilizing nations. People who live with infrastructure don't have reasons to commit terrorism).

You notice how it's just endless excuses, no matter how much or in what way you press people? It's just like @Leo Gura had said over and over again, people want change and results for themselves but yet they aren't willing to make the structural changes that are necessary. They would rather just complain, bitch, and moan instead.

We have everything we need between each other and the planet to create a paradise. We just lack the VISION and have our priorities backwards.

Don't get me wrong I'm a pragmatic person, and I don't get stressed worrying about this stuff too much. I just think it's a little amusing how people argue and complain on both sides endlessly when the potential is sitting right there.

Everything seems impossible for humanity until it's accomplished and becomes the norm, and then people take it for granted and scoff at the next "impossible" thing.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Roy

[ivory]

18 minutes ago, Roy said:

But we are all mostly trapped in our own cages of illusion, willingly or unwillingly, where the bars are made up of selfishness, greed, fear, survival needs, want for power, etc.

This is the root of the problem, but I'm not sure we can wait for these changes to come to pass on a personal or collective level. We need a catalyst for change. That may come in the form of a crisis or through exposure to the better life. Once the value system of the majority has shifted, I think that's when we'll reach some level of homeostasis. But that will take time. For positive change to even begin, though, there are just so many unknowns to consider which makes this process so unpredictable. It's difficult to say what needs to happen.

[Milos Uzelac]

1 hour ago, Roy said:

@ivory Precisely! That's exactly what we're talking about. It's just like Terence Mckenna said, we have the resources, the power, the technological knowledge, and the community to build a utopia. But we are led by the least among us, more accurately our least inspiring ambitions and motivations. The change that is necessary for these things to come to fruition isn't a fantasy, it is an actionable path in reality for people to wake up tomorrow with a new perspective and healthier set of values and radically change the world for the better. But we are all mostly trapped in our own cages of illusion, willingly or unwillingly, where the bars are made up of selfishness, greed, fear, survival needs, want for power, etc.

"How am I going to retire without excess money?!" (Everyone wants to shelter away the old til they rot to death in expensive hotels, a cheaper healthier solution is in a community/family oriented solution, with volunteers).

"We can't just be giving money to bums and drug addicts!" (But when they are the ones struggling they demand handouts).

"It's too expensive!" (The resources already exist for a good quality living for everyone, it's just dispersed unequally).

"We can't lower our defense budget! The world will become unsafe!" (Terrorists exist exactly for the reason of intrusive wars destabilizing nations. People who live with infrastructure don't have reasons to commit terrorism).

You notice how it's just endless excuses, no matter how much or in what way you press people? It's just like @Leo Gura had said over and over again, people want change and results for themselves but yet they aren't willing to make the structural changes that are necessary. They would rather just complain, bitch, and moan instead.

We have everything we need between each other and the planet to create a paradise. We just lack the VISION and have our priorities backwards.

Don't get me wrong I'm a pragmatic person, and I don't get stressed worrying about this stuff too much. I just think it's a little amusing how people argue and complain on both sides endlessly when the potential is sitting right there.

Everything seems impossible for humanity until it's accomplished and becomes the norm, and then people take it for granted and scoff at the next "impossible" thing.

They often brand this kind of excellent, passionate and convincing thinking as socialist utopianism etc. But as Zizek once pointed out what's really utopian is to think that just making incremental changes will sustain an unsustainable (in regards to ever widening gap of inequality - its related structural issues - and environmental destruction) neoliberalism trickle down and oligopolic generating economics system. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Milos Uzelac