What's wrong with using high achievement mentality in enlightenment/spiritual work?

[Hello from Russia]

In our circles, I feel it's somewhat condemned to use this style of motivation for spiritual work. But I find it is actually quite a powerful force to get going. It fulfills you with positive self-belief that "you will figure it out too".

I found many types of motivation people follow here and in general is more negative and fear-based, often it's some sort of escapism. You're playing to not lose rather than to win. Like "oh, all these guys are doing meditation, psychedelics and doing all these cool spiritual techniques to enlighten themselves, I should do it too, so I won't miss out and even if I fail miserably, I will feel spiritual, like I did something useful, although I'm a broke hippy, at least I'm not this materialist stage orange type of guy, haha".

But I feel like it just doesn"t fly this way in the world and you can't achieve or change shit not for yourself, not for others with that thinking. It is weak as fuck. So I'm questioning these notions heavily right now.

What are your thoughts on this? Especially would be great to know what @Leo Gura's take on it. I think he reckoned this pretty well, Although he bashes on everything materialistic in his videos.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Hello from Russia

[Thought Art]

You are right! Well, negative motivation doesn't work long term. But, we can only start from our level of development and awareness. In the beginning for like 99% of people we start out on a spiritual path because we are looking to avoid suffering, stop self sabotaging, etc. But, as we grow... in my experience anyway as we come less neurotic, less needy... once our nervous systems are working properly and we have developed our maps of reality well... Our motivations can change and become more positive, more based on our own internal values. 

We also should realize that we are all born into the same system. This system is neurotic... and we are all here for a reason. To become our own Gurus and live our best lives. It's important to respect where people are on their journeys as well.

Lemme know what you think!

 

Side note: Sounds like something he covers really well in the life purpose course. Check it out if you havent!

[electroBeam]

This is a great question, with a counter intuitive answer

[Commodent]

This is basically the task of stage Yellow, which includes fully integrating all the stages below it (in this case Orange). Transcend and include. 

[Thought Art]

19 minutes ago, Meta-Man said:

For me the way it works is like the ‘carrot and the stick’.

You are a donkey.

The stick that hits you in the ass is the suffering in your life.. It pushes you to awaken in order to end your misery and liberate yourself from bondage.

The carrot is the ‘promise’ you have been given by your teacher. Love, beauty, intelligence, immortality, self-expression, all the goodies. As you move further along the path the carrot will be not only be a ‘promise’ anymore, but it becomes clear to you that the more you let go into the awake space, the more rewarded you will be.

In my experience it is wisdom that throws you onto the path.

I hope I interpreted your question correctly.

Love the power of metaphor. Is there a spiritual metaphor thread? These can be Enlightening!

Edited March 30, 2020 by Thought Art

[hamedsf]

that's a quite dualistic question! 

if dual nature of your interpretation collapses, you'd be able to be a badass business man who is having fun gaining fuckin' chunk of money on a daily basis and party and bullshit in the afternoon and gets back to his night and morning lengthy meditation session afterwards. 

don't know why there are people still asking this, I guess it's because of the longtime complaining of Leo about the materialistic achievement in his old videos. 

hope you understand 

Edited April 4, 2020 by hamedsf

[Leo Gura]

On 3/30/2020 at 9:40 AM, Hello from Russia said:

I found many types of motivation people follow here and in general is more negative and fear-based, often it's some sort of escapism. You're playing to not lose rather than to win. Like "oh, all these guys are doing meditation, psychedelics and doing all these cool spiritual techniques to enlighten themselves, I should do it too, so I won't miss out

What???

Where are you getting this??

You've badly misread the situation.

The point of pursuing awakening should be a positive one: Truth, curiosity, and Love.

[diamondpenguin]

Im searching for paradise 

[fridjonk]

@diamondpenguin Look no further, you're inside it. YOU ARE IT. 

[diamondpenguin]

6 hours ago, fridjonk said:

@diamondpenguin Look no further, you're inside it. YOU ARE IT. 

That's that's nicest thing anybody has ever said to me my whole life. Thanks man. 

[fridjonk]

@diamondpenguin You got it, infinite beauty baby! 

[Javfly33]

I´m not sure I have understood your question. But if you are going for enlightment it should be your first priority. If you are doing 50 hours week or playing a lot of videogames or similar distractions, it just not going to happen.

Gotta set your priorities straight. That doesn´t mean that you will abandon everything. More that you know what drives your heart and you follow along

[Hello from Russia]

On 4/5/2020 at 0:32 AM, Leo Gura said:

What???

Where are you getting this??

You've badly misread the situation.

The point of pursuing awakening should be a positive one: Truth, curiosity, and Love.

Yes, that's what I meant. It should be positive over negative (ideally).

Sorry, I've probably communicated my thoughts poorly.

My main frustration is that people generally have very negative motivation, lie to themselves and have very low standards in this work (and other works for that matter). But then, they bash on you and call you a stage orange "tryharder" if you actually go more hardcore and set some high standards for yourself as well as identify yourself with being a high-achiever type.

And secondly, I am thinking about: "what's actually wrong with using this high-achievement identity or character to aid you in your efforts?" People demonize it, but I see a lot of benefits in this character such as: better determination, better discipline, better ability to focus, knowing what you want, innate desire to actually go and achieve things, independent thinking, iconoplasticism (which I think is crucial here). My main confusion is people often label it as ego-based motivation which sort of demonizes these behaviors as well, because they together constitute this "hardcore character".

That is probably just some story that needs to be dropped off and such opinions disregarded. But I'm not sure. What if i'm just deceiving myself and it's just more ego, indeed. These "stories" are so fucked up, they are fucking with your mind.  Do you or anyone else have advice on how to deal with these stories?

Edited April 6, 2020 by Hello from Russia

[Parththakkar12]

@Hello from Russia  There is a problem with using the high-achievement attitude towards this work. Ask yourself 'Who is it that wants to 'achieve enlightenment'?' Then if you get an answer 'Me', your next question is 'Who is this 'me'?'. That's where I'd take my self-enquiry if I were in your place.

Achievement is something the ego wants. You can get all the results you want in your life by having an achievement attitude, except enlightenment and good relationships. The problem with this attitude in a relationship context is that relationships are inherently vulnerable and you can't 'achieve' a good relationship by only your own efforts.

[Tarzan]

@Hello from Russia

If you pursue enlightnement and think that using high-achieving mentality to build yourself up to effectively get into the practices and techniques then that is very nice imo. The problem I think is that further down the line if you have put in enough effort you will recognize the limits of this mentality and how it creates an identity of a high-achiever that you must now work on.

Maybe though its better to first get into that mentality and then let it go when it doesn't work for you anymore. e.g. using self-pride and a sense of achievement for putting in like an hour of meditation for a year straight. But after that you slowly start to let that mentality go because being in a meditative state will become natural, maybe you have a breakthrough experience, and that will motivate you without the need for aggrandizing the work. I think Leo has said having a burning desire to pursue enlightenment is very important. Doesn't matter what your motivations are as long as you do the practices and can see long-term progress.

Some people, as you have noticed, maybe aren't capable of motivating themselves because their needs are that powerful and they need to work on how to deal with suffering and the negative stuff first and use meditation techniques for that instead of enlightenment. Because its unimaginable yet to understand where this work can lead to.

For me enlightenment work is no1 priority in my life whenever I review my motivations, but neuroses also get in the way sometimes so its a bit of both positive and negative reinforcement.