Can Someone Explain Islam To Me?

[Leo Gura]

On 7/30/2016 at 1:56 AM, ttm said:

Wouldn't it be possible to create a religion with no valuable insights hidden in it? For example, completely for the personal purpose of gaining wealth and power? Also, it really isn't all metaphor for reality, there's a lot of stuff there...

As long as people cling to all that stuff which is actually called religion (and which so makes one religion different from another), the real insights are (at least for the most part) missed. The wisdom there is religion-independent. Also, reading between the lines does not mean that every sentence is wisdom there and you just have to understand it somehow, but exactly the ability to recognize the anti-wisdom there and just let that go. At some point it gets reeeally inefficient to find the wisdom from the haystack. 

I wasn't referring to islam here in particular, I haven't read the Quran so I don't know if there's any wisdom and if there is, how it is proportioned with anti-wisdom. A wise person can use pure solid antiwisdom to get enlightened, and a fool will do literally anything to deepen his foolishness, so that kind of approach isn't very practical to many people.

No, it is actually not possible. Because all thoughts are illusory and false. The mind cannot access Absolute Truth by definition. Any symbolic representation you make of the Truth will never be the Truth itself. So Truth is always hidden by language & beliefs.

Science is no better. You can have a perfect description of the Truth in scientific terms but it will still be 100% untrue. So science is not any more accurate than religion when it comes to grasping Absolute Truth.

There is no approach possible for Absolute Truth. Which is why so few people every grasp it. The only way is to step outside the mind. But that requires consciousness, which is lacking, which is the whole problem.

On 7/30/2016 at 6:34 AM, electroBeam said:

How do you know that your interpretation is correct? Its all subjective isn't it?

Hehe, it's so obvious if you actually do self-inquiry and study nonduality. It's just so freaking obvious! There's nothing subjective about it at all. It seems subjective to you because you are operating on the level of the mind: beliefs & thoughts. None of which can get you access to Absolute Truth, which is what God is.

What Islam is talking about is the only thing in the world that is NOT subjective. God is the only objective thing there is. That's what makes it God! It's infinite! There is nothing outside it. It covers everything!

[ttm]

26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No, it is actually not possible. Because all thoughts are illusory and false. The mind cannot access Absolute Truth by definition. Any symbolic representation you make of the Truth will never be the Truth itself. So Truth is always hidden by language & beliefs.

I think you misunderstood me (I'm having difficulties expressing myself with english as non-native speaker). I was addressing your claim that every religion has the Truth "hidden" in it. Which clearly is the case for the most, or at least for many religions. But, I can imagine a set of beliefs and dogma (religion), constructed purely to gain personal wealth and power, with absolutely no Truth/Wisdom behind any of it.

Edited August 2, 2016 by ttm

[electroBeam]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Hehe, it's so obvious if you actually do self-inquiry and study nonduality. It's just so freaking obvious! There's nothing subjective about it at all. It seems subjective to you because you are operating on the level of the mind: beliefs & thoughts. None of which can get you access to Absolute Truth, which is what God is.

What Islam is talking about is the only thing in the world that is NOT subjective. God is the only objective thing there is. That's what makes it God! It's infinite! There is nothing outside it. It covers everything!

You seem to be cherry picking the parts you like, there are plenty of parts of the Quran that doesn't refer to reality. Can you sense a pointing to the truth in any of these quotes:

"For those who deny (the coming of) the Hour We have prepared a flame. When it seeth them from afar, they hear the crackling and the roar thereof. And when they are flung into a narrow place thereof, chained together, they pray for destruction there." 25:11-13 -> Why does someone have to prepare the flame, when they are already in it??

Qur’an 9:29—"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." -> Jizyah is a metaphor? Really?

And judgment day has nothing to do with reality.

Edited August 2, 2016 by electroBeam

[Leo Gura]

13 hours ago, ttm said:

I think you misunderstood me (I'm having difficulties expressing myself with english as non-native speaker). I was addressing your claim that every religion has the Truth "hidden" in it. Which clearly is the case for the most, or at least for many religions. But, I can imagine a set of beliefs and dogma (religion), constructed purely to gain personal wealth and power, with absolutely no Truth/Wisdom behind any of it.

Oh, well, yeah. Of course you could. Look at Scientology

9 hours ago, electroBeam said:

You seem to be cherry picking the parts you like, there are plenty of parts of the Quran that doesn't refer to reality. Can you sense a pointing to the truth in any of these quotes:

"For those who deny (the coming of) the Hour We have prepared a flame. When it seeth them from afar, they hear the crackling and the roar thereof. And when they are flung into a narrow place thereof, chained together, they pray for destruction there." 25:11-13 -> Why does someone have to prepare the flame, when they are already in it??

Qur’an 9:29—"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." -> Jizyah is a metaphor? Really?

And judgment day has nothing to do with reality.

Of course every religion is dogmatic and limited. It's a partial, incomplete understanding of nonduality.

You gotta understand that 2000 years ago, given the state of humanity back then, this was a huge advance. Islam was a very peaceful and civilizing force back in the Middle East of 2000 years ago, when neighboring tribes were raping and pillaging each other left and right with no sense of decency, worshiping dozens of various deities.

Today of course, it's very outdated, and there are MUCH better techniques and conceptual frameworks available for reaching enlightenment (God).

[Samuel Garcia]

On 7/29/2016 at 2:11 AM, Leo Gura said:

God is Nothing.

You gotta learn how to read between the lines of religious teachings and sayings. It's all metaphor for reality. Don't get lost in the details and images.

A wise person can read the Quran and use it to get enlightened. A fool will read the Quran and entrench himself only deeper in foolishness.

But scholars of the Quran who have studied the history and written extensively on the Quran and they don't say Islam is based upon spiritual enlightenment -- and they dedicate their lives to interpreting the Quran. Why believe in what you are claiming? 

Seeing religion thorough the scope of enlightenment perhaps is a confirmation bias. 

And what about how the universe was created? How did humans get where they are today? Are you saying that there is no ultimate conscious being.

How can something come out of nothing? In your 'All of Religion Explained in One Video' you said you have to experience Nothingness. But isn't that experience something in itself?

[Leo Gura]

@Samuel Garcia You will NEVER understand it with the mind. NEVER! It's utterly speechless. It's beyond anything you can imagine. Imagine actual aliens showed up at your house tonight, abducted you, and flew you to another galaxy. Well... that's peanuts compared to what we're talking about here. Aliens would seem normal by comparison. At least you can imagine aliens.

Stop listening to scholars. They have no clue what reality is. A million scholars working for a million years would still not know. That's how radical this stuff is.

I don't know how enlightened Muhammad was. My guess is, he had some deep mystical experiences but not full proper enlightenment. Which would explain the Quran.

The universe is an idea in your mind. There is no such thing.

The ultimate conscious being is Nothingness. Something can ONLY come out of Nothing.

Nothing is NOT an experience. It's Nothing!

[Samuel Garcia]

@Leo Gura

On 8/4/2016 at 4:05 AM, Leo Gura said:

 

Stop listening to scholars. They have no clue what reality is. A million scholars working for a million years would still not know. That's how radical this stuff is.

I don't know how enlightened Muhammad was. My guess is, he had some deep mystical experiences but not full proper enlightenment. Which would explain the Quran.

How did you come to the conclusion Islam is based upon spiritual enlightenment? Where did  you get your information from? Knowing reality may make the Quran or any other religious scripture more understandable in the scope of spiritual enlightenment, but surely this is a confirmation bias?

[Sultan]

well Leo you make me see the religions in a different way. I am from a religious family(muslim) I have many many doubts  about my religion which make me said I don't know (Now I am in state of I don't know) I am truly thankfully for you Leo

[actualized1]

On 4/8/2016 at 5:05 AM, Leo Gura said:

@Samuel Garcia You will NEVER understand it with the mind. NEVER! It's utterly speechless. It's beyond anything you can imagine. Imagine actual aliens showed up at your house tonight, abducted you, and flew you to another galaxy. Well... that's peanuts compared to what we're talking about here. Aliens would seem normal by comparison. At least you can imagine aliens.

Stop listening to scholars. They have no clue what reality is. A million scholars working for a million years would still not know. That's how radical this stuff is.

I don't know how enlightened Muhammad was. My guess is, he had some deep mystical experiences but not full proper enlightenment. Which would explain the Quran.

The universe is an idea in your mind. There is no such thing.

The ultimate conscious being is Nothingness. Something can ONLY come out of Nothing.

Nothing is NOT an experience. It's Nothing!

Leo, please answer me this:

If the Bible and the Quran teachings are for guiding you towards spiritual enlightenment why isn't that claimed clearly in those books?

Because in them it's claimed that everything that is written was/is true. that these things actually happened and will happen physically.

And let's be honest, there is a lot of nonesense and cruel laws in them.

Edited August 6, 2016 by actualized1

[Leo Gura]

On 8/6/2016 at 9:45 AM, Samuel Garcia said:

@Leo Gura

How did you come to the conclusion Islam is based upon spiritual enlightenment? Where did  you get your information from? Knowing reality may make the Quran or any other religious scripture more understandable in the scope of spiritual enlightenment, but surely this is a confirmation bias?

Study nonduality and study Islam. Have an enlightenment experience or two. It's obvious.

The Sufi's have a great description of Enlightenment/Nothingness: fana al fana (the passing away of the passing away.)

22 hours ago, actualized1 said:

Leo, please answer me this:

If the Bible and the Quran teachings are for guiding you towards spiritual enlightenment why isn't that claimed clearly in those books?

Because in them it's claimed that everything that is written was/is true. that these things actually happened and will happen physically.

And let's be honest, there is a lot of nonesense and cruel laws in them.

In the case of the Bible, it was written by followers who were clearly never enlightenment. Jesus did not write the Bible. The Bible is also contaminated by many political agendas. But even so, you can still find many references to enlightenment in the Bible if you understand what enlightenment is.

Spiritual books are not written for modern scientific materialist rationalist minds. Your rationalist mindset is in many ways a modern disease. Modern humans have lost the ability to interpret symbols and metaphors, which is what all spiritual teachings are. They are not meant to be scientific because you CANNOT scientifically model Truth or God or any other deep spiritual insights.

Be careful about imposing your own modern-era mindsets and biases onto cultures and peoples of 2000 years ago. They were in many ways far more advanced that we are. They were much more open to direct consciousness, whereas our heads are filled with "scientific" beliefs and models, none of which are absolutely true, and leave the mind closed to direct consciousness. Just because YOU want the Bible to say, "THIS IS ENLIGHTENMENT" doesn't mean it should.

If a painting of Jesus with a halo around his head isn't glaringly obvious to you, then you really have a lot of research to do.

The laws are actually not cruel but merciful, relative to the time of human history we are talking about. In those days, you could get you head chopped off on a whim. Religion actually established humane rules by which to structure civilization. Of course, in 2016, some of those laws look outdated.

[actualized1]

21 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

In the case of the Bible, it was written by followers who were clearly never enlightenment. Jesus did not write the Bible. The Bible is also contaminated by many political agendas. But even so, you can still find many references to enlightenment in the Bible if you understand what enlightenment is.

Spiritual books are not written for modern scientific materialist rationalist minds. Your rationalist mindset is in many ways a modern disease. Modern humans have lost the ability to interpret symbols and metaphors, which is what all spiritual teachings are. They are not meant to be scientific because you CANNOT scientifically model Truth or God or any other deep spiritual insights.

Be careful about imposing your own modern-era mindsets and biases onto cultures and peoples of 2000 years ago. They were in many ways far more advanced that we are. They were much more open to direct consciousness, whereas our heads are filled with "scientific" beliefs and models, none of which are absolutely true, and leave the mind closed to direct consciousness. Just because YOU want the Bible to say, "THIS IS ENLIGHTENMENT" doesn't mean it should.

If a painting of Jesus with a halo around his head isn't glaringly obvious to you, then you really have a lot of research to do.

The laws are actually not cruel but merciful, relative to the time of human history we are talking about. In those days, you could get you head chopped off on a whim. Religion actually established humane rules by which to structure civilization. Of course, in 2016, some of those laws look outdated.

So the Bible is a metaphorically written guide of life for that time with enlightenment included?

Would you recommend someone reading the Bible or Quran as a source of wisdom for life? or are they far behind other non-religious books for how to approach and deal with things in life like Meditations for example?

[Samuel Garcia]

Are religious scriptures or those becoming or are spiritually enlightened 'allowed' to lie? In Islam Muhammad was a man who didn't know how to read or write and God miraculously give him the ability to read when he first met angel Gabriel as the first verses of the Quran were revealed. Supposedly if Muhammad wrote the Quran, he would have known how to read and write unless there is some deeper meaning in this. 

[Nagma]

@Tariq  Yes u missed the most important part witch is the second . " then god blew of his spirit into the body ( of adam ) " and then adam is born , and this is what is deep . 

Adam in islamic theology is not born the moment god built him from clay but after when god decides to blow  the spirit in him . As another islamic  proof to that , the Devil when he was in paradise found the statue of clay ( adam not born yet ) and studied it . 

But its still true that muslims believe that god is one entity different from everything he has created , but humans can still potentially be very close to god . 

[veqsms]

The philosophy of Mohammed was to emphasize that God (allah) is the only one compared to that time where most people believed in polytheism, which means one god one population = no duality, also the religois was spread very fast because it says all human beings all equality so that for poor people was really favorable.

[lmfao]

@Cuzzo I come from a Pakistani family and was raised Muslim, but I'm not a Muslim myself. My post might go off at a tangent at times but I'm just trying to paint a picture for what the religion is as best I can in a short-is time. My knowledge of Islamic history isn't superb but I've been exposed to a lot of it as a child in religious school.

Islam as it is practiced today by the majority of followers is based upon a fundamentalist interpretation of the quran. The Quran is believed by the vast majority of Muslims to be the uncorrupted words of God. And it is because of that belief that Muslims will be fundamentalist in how they interpret the Quran. To disagree with the Quran is therefore to disagree with God. That is the view many Muslims hold. 

After the Quran, the second most important source for Islamic teachings are "Hadiths". Hadiths consist of traditions and sayings of the prophet Mohammad which have been recorded by his followers. Hadiths are very important, as they can shape to a significant degree the Interpratation you take of the Quran. It is from hadith that some nasty things can come into play. 

For example:

Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."

 

Different schools of Islam follow different hadiths. Hadiths are not the words of God in Islamic theology. Muslims recognise they have no guarantee that they haven't been corrupted. It is because of this that Hadiths are often rated and reviewed on how reliable they are by looking at the source of the hadith. I think that there is a realitively consistent strict vetting process for which hadith are considered "authentic" and which ones are not. On top the sayings of Mohammad, Islamic figures who lived around and shortly after the time of Mohammad have their sayings recorded. Sunni Muslims will follow the sayings of whom they deem worthy and Shia Muslims follow the sayings of whom they deem worthy. I can't be bothered to go into it now, but Islam split into being Sunni and Shia after Mohammad's death and there was an internal dispute among Mohammad's followers. 

 

I've went on off on a massive tangent. Now time to focus on the main questions you were asking. Why is Islam associated with violence, and why is there such a clash in social values between East and West. 

Even if all Muslims agree to take interpret the Quran literally, there will still be room for disagreement amongst Muslims for how to interpret the Quran.

There will be verses in the Quran which talk about violence against disbelievers. However, most Muslims believe that these verses are not what they seem on face value because of context. 

For example:

Surah 9 Verse 5: "And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful"

Now, most Muslims will say that this verse is only applicable as instructions to the followers of Mohammad in the situation they were in however many hundred years ago. The verses are instructions to Mohammad and his followers when they were in war with a particular tribe they lived around, and you might then go on to talk about why such actions might be justified as you analyse the exact historical situation. 

But on the other hand, terrorist groups and extremists will interpret/use this verse as an instruction from God for Muslims in all eras to apply in all situations they find themselves in life. 

Now even if we are put the murder of disbelievers aside to one moment, you still get Sharia Law from Quran and Hadiths which a very significant portion of Muslims in the world support ( but they will not use violence to impose these laws). Shariah Law isn't this monolithic set of rules, there are many variations to it. However, the set of "nasty" laws you get in the set of different versions Shariah Law are believed by most Shariah Law advocates with little variation. 

Muslims on the more fundamentalist end of the spectrum have a huge obsession with gurading their religion from heresy and moral corruption. They see their religion as the only true path, and have an extremely low tolerance for changes to the religion. These very fundamentalist Muslims are on guard from Bid'ah, which is Arabic for "innovation" in religious matters. They don't want "innovation" for their religious laws. It is important to note that the essence of the word "innovation" will differ from that of "Bid 'ah". Each of the two words will different connotations in the two languages. 

If you ever read the Quran from a literal point of view, there are a few messages which are repeated over and over again. The Quran emphasis that the believers will go to heaven, and more importantly, the disbelievers will go to hell. I've read 80% of the Quran, and it gets very boring to read. It's just God saying in 101 different ways that disbelievers are vermin. The overall tone of the book is one of intolerance in my opinion. I believe that from a fundamentalist lens of the Quran, the argument that extremists make for their interpretation is very strong unfortunately. 

 

 

Now, as for a non dual take on the Quran I'll copy and paste what I wrote on a previous topic I made 

The Quran likes to talk about how those who commit themselves to God are ultimately on the right path and will be rewarded, and those who reject God will only find misery in hellfire. If we take "God" to be the "absolute" (or whatever word you want to insert here) , the nothingness from which everything comes from in your perception, then a take away from reading the Quran might be the idea that those who make a commitment to connect to the absolute (whether it be through yoga, meditation, devotion and etc) will reach heaven, a peaceful state of mind. However, those who are not mindful of and are ignorant of God will ultimately end up going through unbearable suffering (hellfire) as a result of them not connecting to the absolute. People will be trapped in suffering as a result of them not connecting to the absolute.

 

I don't have many thoughts as to what the morality preached could mean. Perhaps the Quran is also trying to say that being charitable and doing other "good deeds" is a way to connect to the absolute, whilst doing "bad deeds" like adultery distances you from the absolute.

 

However, the worst sin you can do in Islam (from a non-dual intepratation) is to not acknowledge that the absolute is there, and to not try to connect to it. A fundamentalist would call this sin "shirk". Shirk is the rejection of the fact that God exists, and that there is only one God. You could interpret this as meaning that the chief sin you can commit is to not recognize that all is one and that there are no boundaries between things, an ultimately non-dual teaching. 

 

Provided we are going with a "non-dual" intepration of the Quran, then we ultimately find the Quran is just repeating the same message, over and over again, since it keeps on talking about heaven and hellfire.The Quran likes to emphasise heaven and hellfire to tremendous degrees, more so than the Bible on a whole in my opinion (depends on which part of the Bible as well as though).

 

Whether or not my intepration is separate from the authors' intent or not is unknown to me. Whatever the case, it was entertaining to read. My take away from the Quran is this: those who make the effort to connect to the absolute will find peace, and those who don't try to connect to the absolute will find misery. This is why it's important to set practices in place to connect to the absolute (Muslims like to pray for instance). 

 

So what do you make of religious scriptures? I feel as though that the Bible and Quran can only be seen in this light if you already have non-dual ideas about reality. The word "God" has different meanings to people, and it's ultimately a verbal semantic game when it comes to what you make of it. Given the fact that from a non-dual intepratation the Quran repeats the same message over and over game, it perhaps stands to reason that the Quran was written to be interpreted in the way that fundamentalists do so. But an argument about that would ultimately require an examination of history

 

Edited June 28, 2018 by lmfao

[Leo Gura]

On 7/30/2016 at 6:34 AM, electroBeam said:

How do you know that your interpretation is correct? Its all subjective isn't it?

Because I have had direct consciousness of God/Allah/Buddha/Absolute/Infinity/Shiva.

You can too. Then you will understand, in the same way that you have no doubt what a banana is, cause you've tasted one.

You can easily identify a true description of a banana, no matter which words are used. But only if you've seen and tasted a real banana first.

[nour-cha93]

On 7/28/2016 at 0:50 PM, Tariq said:

I'm pretty sure that the islamic ideology doesn't correspond with that.

According to the quran, a human being is completely different from god himself, he was made from clay and that clay was itself made from nothing, not some part of god.

did I miss anything ?

 

In quraan it is stated clearly that every human being has the soul of God inside of them.

Leo is right but muslims do not understand their religion.

Edited June 28, 2018 by nour-cha93

[Highest]

I'm an ex-Muslim. I can say this, Muslims believe in One God. They believe prophets have been given the same essential message, that is to believe and surrender yourself to one God. They believe Muhammad and the Quran was the last message to humanity. The Sufis got Islam right, then you have those like ISIS who misunderstand it. Islam is not a religion of terrorism. It gave a lot to mankind those days, now it's pretty outdated. 

[Highest]

53 minutes ago, nour-cha93 said:

In quraan it is stated clearly that every human being has the soul of God inside of them.

Leo is right but muslims do not understand their religion.

I have read the Quran few times, it does not say that we have the soul of God inside us. It clearly separates the God from mankind.

[nour-cha93]

1 hour ago, Highest said:

I have read the Quran few times, it does not say that we have the soul of God inside us. It clearly separates the God from mankind.

Check Alhijr verse: So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, then fall down making obeisance to him.