What is a complete awakening?

[Enlightenment]

Quote

As someone who has done countless psychedelic trips, they can certainly aid in insight and dealing with emotional baggage. Though I think their main value is in showing "the brain" that there is an alternative to mundane consciousness, and that things might not be what they seem.

The trap with psychedelics is that experiences and insights are essentially infinite. You could be spinning your wheels for years or decades, but imagine that you're "getting somewhere" because you're having cool psychonaut insights. Meanwhile, Realization genuinely has nothing do with with experiences or (ultimately) even insight.

 

[Bill W]

Good topic actually. I've seen other members document on here along the lines of "after my latest awakening" and I've always wondered what they mean? I know it's subjective, but we can still discuss. 

Is it even arrogance to state oneself as having had an "awakening"? I'm not saying it is arrogant, merely putting it out there. 

For me, I think of it as "having a moment of clarity", or some would say "insight". 

[zeroISinfinity]

?

Lets cross our zen sticks. 

Feelings that's all to IT. No talk can substitute Actual No thingy. 

Maybe thing I will say would absolutelly correct but that's just feeling their heads with more conceptualization while avoiding actuality. 

[Nahm]

50 minutes ago, Lento said:

assuming that there's an absolute and a relative

Yep.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Lento said:

 If this is a free space for sharing information, then all information should be allowed. 

All information is the same as No information.

The Vision Statement of the forum: 

To create a high-quality, supportive online community for self-actualization work.

This enters nuances like: what is “high-quality”? What counts as “supportive”? What is “self-actualization”? What counts as “work”? . . .And who should decide these things? 

Some of these questions are described in the Guidelines. Yet there are also grey areas that become highly nuanced and very difficult to judge. To me, there are times that seems like “Your damned if you do and damned if you don’t”.

I also wouldn’t want the forum to become dogmatic. Yet imo avoiding dogmatism isn’t as simple as allowing “anything goes”. Yet I also wouldn’t go to the other extreme of “only one thing goes”.

[Grateful Dead]

For me a complete awakening is when you feel complete in that moment like there is nothing more you want to achieve. Kind of you reached the end, you finished and now just enjoy your being.

[Eph75]

The definition of "awakening" matters hugely, awakening implies awakening from a sleep. To me, that happens once and only once and that is when we've awaken from the "sleepwalking" state that most of us spend our entire lives in.

There is no mistaking  when this awakening has happened. If you're in doubt, guessing or feel you have a stong enough concept, no - that's not it. This you just know, and feel. 

Awakening makes us "see" in a completely new way, a kind of third or a fourth person perspective. We see and make sense of things in a drastically different way. We're more of a spectator of the going-ons that we are the participator. With all the consequences that follows. 

Insights we can have infinitely many of. None of which can be "total". An insight is just a new way of making sense of "some thing" previously known or "some thing" that we've been made aware of that we we've not been aware of previously.

Still, this is just one more distraction that pulls us away from that which matters - which is embracing "nothing".

Edited March 14, 2020 by Eph75

[Lento]

@Enlightenment Is that a quote from Leo?

@Bill W I don't think it's arrogant as long as there's a capacity for discussion. And I agree with you on the definition.

49 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

This enters nuances

Yes, although locking multiple threads of debatable quality for multiple users while high on 5-Meo does not give me the impression of much nuance.

[Forestluv]

 

Quote

Yes, although locking multiple threads of debatable quality for multiple users while high on 5-Meo does not give me the impression of much nuance.

Yes of course “quality” is relative. As well, nuance includes both discussions of nuances and taking specific actions without discussion. Sometimes group discussion about nuance has value, sometimes taking an action without group discussion of nuance has value. In the context of a teacher, sometimes it’s productive for a teacher to have a discussion about an issue with students, sometimes it’s productive to allow the students to have a discussion amongst themselves, sometimes it’s productive for the teacher to just make a decision on their own.

Please be mindful of context and refrain from referring to spiritual practices and tools in a condescending / derogatory context. It’s fine to have issues with a certain spiritual practice / tool, yet let’s be respectful with each other about it. We have members on the forum that engage in a wide variety of spiritual practices. 

[Lento]

2 hours ago, acidgoofy said:

For me a complete awakening is when you feel complete in that moment like there is nothing more you want to achieve. Kind of you reached the end, you finished and now just enjoy your being.

I would call that state a complete satisfaction of all the senses including the mind, or what we call 'ego-death'. I think awakening is a specific term for the satisfaction of the mind, although not necessarily alone. For example, I might have a moment of complete understanding, yet still desire food or sex. I would still consider that an awakening. In this context, a scientific discovery can be described as an awakening too.

@Eph75 I agree with you on everything except on the distraction part. Without a destination, distractions do not exist. Is there a destination? For me, it's up to me whether I want to create a destination or not.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Lento

[Lento]

9 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

 

Yes of course “quality” is relative. As well, nuance includes both discussions of nuances and taking specific actions. Sometimes group discussion about nuance has value, sometimes taking an action without group discussion of nuance has value. In the context of a teacher, sometimes it’s productive for a teacher to have a discussion about an issue with students, sometimes it’s productive to allow the students to have a discussion amongst themselves, sometimes it’s productive for the teacher to just make a decision on their own.

So, I should trust that every decision Leo takes is the best decision? Assuming that you're speaking for him of course.

12 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Please be mindful of context and refrain from referring to spiritual practices and tools in a condescending / derogatory context. It’s fine to have issues with a certain spiritual practice / tool, yet let’s be respectful with each other about it. We have members on the forum that engage in a wide variety of spiritual practices. 

Sure. I'm sorry.

[Eph75]

@Lento I think we already agree. A destination implies a desire to get somewhere - or - need to prove something which results in distractions. This thread is such a distraction 

[Beginner Mind]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

Yet I also wouldn’t go to the other extreme of “only one thing goes”.

That seems to be the direction Leo is heading in, unless I'm misreading things.

[Forestluv]

23 minutes ago, Lento said:

So, I should trust that every decision Leo takes is the best decision? Assuming that you're speaking for him of course.

Who/what you trust is relative to you. We create our reality.

I don’t speak for Leo. I’ve never even met him and I don’t know that much about him. 

I don’t disagree with everything you are saying. I think you are making some good points. Yet these are individual points within a greater holism of points.

For example, we could say that all there is is Now and that all that arises Now is Perfect. There is truth to that. We could also say that there is a process toward perfection. There is also truth to that. I am Perfect Now and I am a work in progress toward perfection.

The journey is the destination. There is both journey and destination and neither journey nor destination. If we don’t take a step in the journey/destination, we fail and succeed. If we do take a step toward the journey/destination, we fail and succeed.

I would describe this nature as a subjective experience of groundlessness. I used to be very uncomfortable with it and would seek grounding,  yet now I’m comfortable with it and even like it. 

[Gnosis]

@Lento The quote you asked about is a quote from Reddit.

 

But let me ask you a question,

what exactly is the point of this discussion?

 

Clearly you are unclear, and it's unlikely others here on the forums will clear up your unclearness.

 

Although, this thread is very understandable considering Leo himself uses the phrase "Your awakening is incomplete".

 

From what I can see, Leo is locking threads which have a high probability for being misleading.

He's not locking the threads of the lowest consciousness, but rather the threads based on some ("incomplete") insight into consciousness but are amassing a lot of discussion with the great potential for delusion.

It may not even be those who are involved in the discussing that are of concern, but rather those who are merely reading the forums, which will range from those just beginning the journey to those who are very advanced.

 

For those just beginning the journey, what is problematic is that they may subconsciously tune in to the preoccupied-ness with some incomplete facet of insight of those involved in the discussion. And as such be deluded in the future.

For those who are very advanced, what is "problematic" is the discussion doesn't reflect well on the forums, since by virtue of being very advanced, what little insight the thread offers is just that.

 

That said, I also intuit precisely what Leo's general criteria is, but I simply cannot communicate that through words.

I also understand what Leo means by "Your awakening is incomplete". But if you don't already understand, as evidenced by this thread, I also can't exactly communicate it to you.

Anyhow, let's just say there is relative value in both the view of "awakening is incomplete until ______" and the view of not holding such a criteria.

Please re-read this last statement a few times, as I understand that my particular way of writing can easily go over the head of the reader.

 

In other words,

3 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

The journey is the destination. There is both journey and destination and neither journey nor destination. If we don’t take a step, in the journey/destination, we fail and succeed. If we do take a step toward the journey/destination, we fail and succeed.

[Lento]

5 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Who/what you trust is relative to you.

I should re-phrase; So, I should just trust that every decision Leo makes is the best decision for me and everyone else on the forum, or say for humanity?

7 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

For example, we could say that all there is is Now and that all that arises Now is Perfect. There is truth to that. We could also say that there is a process toward perfection. There is also truth to that. I am Perfect Now and I am a work in progress.

Everything I'm saying is an attempt to get this forum to perfection, even though I am grateful that it's already perfect.

8 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

The journey is the destination. There is both journey and destination and neither journey nor destination. If we don’t take a step, in the journey/destination, we fail and succeed. If we do take a step toward the journey/destination, we fail and succeed. 

Freedom is beautiful. Yet, mixed with responsibility and respect for other perspectives it's magnificent.

[Lento]

@Gnosis

Leo should take down all of his previous videos. His awakening was incomplete.

[Gnosis]

@Lento

Please re-read my final statement.

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, Lento said:

So, I should just trust that every decision Leo makes is the best decision for me and everyone else on the forum, or say for humanity?

For me, that’s a great question that gets into what is trust, decisions , authority, best, me, everyone. I can’t easily answer it and it is worthy of many hours of contemplation. If I give a simple “yes or no” answer, it would be overly assumptive, grounded and insufficient. If I begin exploring “What is trust”?, it would be overly ungrounded, distractive and dissolve the question.

It’s the type idea I like to contemplate, yet I think it would be a disservice to do so here and now, since my contemplations can be sloppy at first, which can be counter-productive. 

In general, I’ve found questioning fine when I am in a curious, unattached space. 

[Forestluv]

22 minutes ago, Gnosis said:

Anyhow, let's just say there is relative value in both the view of "awakening is incomplete until ______" and the view of not holding such a criteria.

This is super hard for the mind, since the mind is conditioned to perceive in opposites. Realizing and embodying this opens up a whole new world.